BONUS EPISODE: Revelation and Politics

[00:00:00] Well, hey welcome to another episode of Digging Deeper Robert here with the one, the only,

[00:00:11] Pastor Pete Goodman.

[00:00:12] You know, actually I don't even know if that's true.

[00:00:15] Sometimes you can google your name to see if there are other Robert's jerseys.

[00:00:18] That's true.

[00:00:19] There are actually a lot of Pete Goodman.

[00:00:20] You're probably not the only Pete Goodman, but he's the only.

[00:00:22] I mean the only Pastor Pete Goodman though.

[00:00:23] I'm not sure.

[00:00:24] Are you?

[00:00:25] I don't know.

[00:00:26] We could always Google that too.

[00:00:27] Definitely not the only Pete Goodman.

[00:00:28] So maybe Google it.

[00:00:29] There's a dentist in New York that shows up at the top when you google it or something

[00:00:32] like that.

[00:00:33] I don't know.

[00:00:34] Nothing I'm sitting there googling myself all the time.

[00:00:35] There's this dentist in New York and he's got a wife and four kids.

[00:00:38] Just, you know, I mean, not that I've checked or anything, but.

[00:00:42] Well, Pete, man.

[00:00:44] So week two of the series Calibrate.

[00:00:47] So you looked at the Church of Smyrna and the Church of Pergamum.

[00:00:50] Yeah, put them together.

[00:00:52] And put them together kind of talking through it.

[00:00:54] I had a few questions just like reading through the text and, you know, Revelation

[00:00:58] is one of those books that, man, there's a lot of interpretation that goes in a lot

[00:01:03] of different directions when it comes to Revelation for someone who is maybe

[00:01:07] following along because I know that oftentimes and if you don't do this, I

[00:01:11] would encourage you to do this.

[00:01:12] That as we're going through a series that's going through a portion of the Bible,

[00:01:16] which it always points to the Bible in some way.

[00:01:19] But when we're going through a specific section, you know, people want to read

[00:01:22] along and they study on their own and things like that.

[00:01:25] Give us a little bit of guidance on how should we read this section of Revelation,

[00:01:29] these letters to these churches.

[00:01:31] You know, I mean, there's a lot of different types of language in there.

[00:01:34] Let me give you an example.

[00:01:35] I mean, he says things that seem contradictory.

[00:01:37] Like I know your poverty and yet you are rich, right?

[00:01:40] Like so it's like, what does that mean?

[00:01:42] Also like things like and I'd like to talk about some of these things specifically.

[00:01:47] But you know, and for the Church of Smyrna, we know that they suffered

[00:01:51] for a while, but they're told you're just going to suffer for, it says 10 days.

[00:01:55] So there's persecution is going to last 10 days.

[00:01:58] We know that it's more than that.

[00:01:59] So what could that possibly mean?

[00:02:01] Give us a little bit of insight on how should we actually approach this text

[00:02:05] and how should we actually read it, study it, apply it to our lives?

[00:02:08] Sure.

[00:02:11] Let me see where to start.

[00:02:12] Yeah, helpful here.

[00:02:13] If it's OK, we might go a little little classroom here for a second.

[00:02:17] I think that's helpful, actually.

[00:02:18] Yeah, we're digging deeper.

[00:02:20] OK, so whenever you.

[00:02:24] Pick up something like a book or a movie.

[00:02:28] We have a word that we might not use it, but you certainly know or understand it.

[00:02:33] It's the word genre and the thing about genre is your brain has a way

[00:02:38] of automatically recognizing it.

[00:02:41] So I've kind of made this comment before like you

[00:02:44] you've told me you love like the Fast and Furious movies.

[00:02:47] Well, that's a genre, right?

[00:02:48] It's a very specific genre.

[00:02:49] Yeah, it's like a fantastic action movie.

[00:02:51] It's action.

[00:02:52] So what here?

[00:02:53] Let me I want to get specific here.

[00:02:55] I just see myself in those movies.

[00:02:56] That's all you know.

[00:02:57] So in the genre of the Fast and Furious, there are certain things that

[00:03:03] you would sort of expect to have happened

[00:03:05] and then certain things that you wouldn't expect to have happened.

[00:03:07] Yeah. So for example, when you're reading the fact,

[00:03:10] when you're watching Fast and Furious,

[00:03:13] it's OK that a tank is like flying out of the air

[00:03:18] and a guy jumps into it, lands it.

[00:03:20] You mean.

[00:03:21] Better. Yes.

[00:03:23] OK, so there's a little bit of you're giving up a little bit of reality.

[00:03:27] But here's the key. A little. No, no, no.

[00:03:29] Yes, you're only giving up a little bit of reality

[00:03:32] if an alien showed up or a dragon flew out of nowhere.

[00:03:35] You're right. You're like, what? Oh, great.

[00:03:36] Just happened. Yes.

[00:03:37] So the Fast and Furious is a little bit unrealistic,

[00:03:40] but it's not straight up science fiction or fantasy.

[00:03:43] When you're watching fantasy, you would expect a dragon to show up.

[00:03:47] You wouldn't expect a guy in a hot rod to show up.

[00:03:50] Well, that doesn't belong here.

[00:03:51] So when you're talking and if you're reading the book, Jane Eyre, right?

[00:03:58] Jane Austen, you you're expecting people to talk and dress a certain way and act.

[00:04:04] You're like a book like that is fiction, but it's based in history.

[00:04:10] So genre tells you what to expect.

[00:04:13] And when your brain says this is what to expect, I can sift everything.

[00:04:17] I can look for things. It's helpful.

[00:04:19] And then there's another genre, which if you if you were to pick up a book

[00:04:23] like The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis.

[00:04:27] Well, now you're in a fantasy genre, so it's OK that there are elves

[00:04:31] and witches and talking lions.

[00:04:35] You they go into a fantasy realm.

[00:04:37] But you also know because of what you've hopefully been told

[00:04:41] and some people haven't that the author C.S. Lewis was a Christian

[00:04:44] who was actually wanting to speak about a deeper world relating to Christianity.

[00:04:50] And so you're in fantasy land, so you have these weird talking animals

[00:04:55] and magic and things.

[00:04:57] But you also know that C.S. Lewis is trying to represent ideas behind those pictures.

[00:05:02] So as land, the lion for C.S. Lewis represents Jesus

[00:05:07] and what he's done for us and the witch represents evil in the world.

[00:05:10] And these kids are having to make decisions.

[00:05:12] So if you understand that, you can open up the Chronicles of Narnia

[00:05:19] and you can read it and enjoy reading it.

[00:05:21] But you have an idea what you're reading.

[00:05:23] So if you didn't know that, you would miss a lot of things.

[00:05:28] You might just think it's crazy fantasy land, which is still fun to read.

[00:05:32] There are people who read C.S. Lewis don't know that he's a Christian

[00:05:35] doing behind the scenes ideas and they still enjoy the book and enjoy it.

[00:05:39] So but you know what you're getting into.

[00:05:41] So if you don't know what you're getting into, well, that changes everything.

[00:05:46] Right? That everything becomes complicated.

[00:05:49] I've used this analogy before and I think I might have used in this podcast.

[00:05:51] I definitely teach it in my class when I used to teach some of this

[00:05:55] to college students.

[00:05:57] I had this picture.

[00:05:58] It was an old picture from 1992.

[00:06:00] It was the cover of I think it was like Time Magazine Newsweek

[00:06:03] and it was a cartoon of an elephant stomping on a donkey's head.

[00:06:07] And like the donkey, his like tongue was rolled out

[00:06:10] and his head was sideways.

[00:06:11] Yeah. And I said, what's going on here?

[00:06:13] And what was interesting is everyone in the room.

[00:06:16] They knew what it was.

[00:06:17] They're like, oh, it must be something political,

[00:06:19] like a Republican versus a Democrat.

[00:06:21] And I said, and probably the I'm assuming the Republicans won an election.

[00:06:26] And I was talking like 18 year olds who weren't like super intense.

[00:06:29] But they knew they could tell like, oh,

[00:06:32] an elephant stomping on a donkey's head on the cover of a political

[00:06:35] magazine example.

[00:06:36] Yeah. I said, what if you took this

[00:06:37] and gave it to some people living in Zimbabwe?

[00:06:40] What would they think?

[00:06:42] What am I looking at?

[00:06:44] What is this, right?

[00:06:46] Without knowing that in my culture, elephants and donkeys and politics.

[00:06:50] So knowing what you're getting into,

[00:06:53] when you open the book of Revelation,

[00:06:55] the biggest challenge is before you even start reading,

[00:06:59] what are you getting into?

[00:07:00] Yeah. And why that such a challenge is number one,

[00:07:04] if it is donkeys and elephants,

[00:07:08] we aren't people that understand donkeys and elephants

[00:07:10] because it was written 2000 years ago to different audiences.

[00:07:13] Or is it not donkeys and elephants?

[00:07:16] And is it actually supposed to be?

[00:07:18] I'm supposed to read this stuff and take it for what it says.

[00:07:21] Yeah. It doesn't tell me.

[00:07:24] It's not like the first sense of Revelation is, oh, by the way,

[00:07:27] before you start reading, here's how to interpret this.

[00:07:29] Yeah. So even among Christians, there's not necessarily agreement.

[00:07:33] There are many believers and I would put myself in this camp

[00:07:37] who would say the best way to approach Revelation

[00:07:40] is to think of that example of elephants and donkeys.

[00:07:44] There's something highly political.

[00:07:45] There's something going on in their culture, in their world,

[00:07:48] and they're using symbols and analogies that they probably understood

[00:07:52] but have been lost to us in many ways to history.

[00:07:54] Others would say, no, I don't think that's true.

[00:07:56] I think this book is for the modern age

[00:07:59] and we're supposed to find ways to interpret and understand it

[00:08:01] in our current culture, about the future, things like that.

[00:08:04] And both sides are intelligent, well-reasoned, well-meaning people.

[00:08:09] Because it's so difficult,

[00:08:11] Rice City tends to shy away from taking a stance on it.

[00:08:15] I tend to shy away from taking a strong stance on it.

[00:08:18] I have an opinion if I was on my podcast.

[00:08:21] I would I have, you know, even my father-in-law

[00:08:25] who is more educated than I am has a different opinion on it.

[00:08:28] And it's like, OK, the church throughout church history,

[00:08:31] Revelation has been a very hotly detested book.

[00:08:34] Absolutely.

[00:08:35] It was Revelation and Jude were like the last two

[00:08:39] that were sort of brought into the canon because it was like,

[00:08:41] what do we do with these?

[00:08:42] Yeah. Revelation, well, and Jude, were both written by apostles.

[00:08:48] So the early church was like, we can't not include a book

[00:08:50] written by the Apostle John.

[00:08:52] I agree and think I don't know what the crumb he's talking about.

[00:08:55] So let's put it in and then maybe not, you know.

[00:08:57] And so that being said, the opening of the letters to the churches

[00:09:03] appear to have the most easily digestible messages.

[00:09:08] And so for me to be able to cover them once you get in a chapter four

[00:09:11] and I actually brought up for a little bit of message,

[00:09:13] it really starts to get difficult to interpret.

[00:09:16] And so, yeah, I would say my interpretation

[00:09:22] of Revelation starts with these symbols,

[00:09:25] these picture words mean something, but their meaning is probably rooted

[00:09:30] in first century Asia Minor Roman Empire.

[00:09:33] And the letters are helpful because they give us at least a geography

[00:09:37] of the contextual. Yeah.

[00:09:38] So what was going on in Smyrna?

[00:09:40] And I did that a little bit like this whole like where Satan has his throne.

[00:09:44] Well, if you know, geographically and historically,

[00:09:47] that Pergamon was home to a temple built in the honor of Emporotitus.

[00:09:52] It can. Oh, I see what's happening here.

[00:09:55] If you know that the word Satan.

[00:09:58] Could be used as any adversary, not necessarily the devil.

[00:10:01] And actually he uses the word devil in other places.

[00:10:04] So a temple or a home of the adversary could easily be the Caesar

[00:10:10] or it could have been Jupiter, the chief God, which was also in Pergamon.

[00:10:15] Pergamon was a tough place.

[00:10:17] So you start to get a sense of like, oh, so these in like poverty,

[00:10:20] it's like it's not just poor.

[00:10:21] Oh, this was happening in Smyrna.

[00:10:24] You're going to be covering Leo to see in a couple of weeks.

[00:10:27] Yeah, this whole hot and cold Jesus.

[00:10:29] There's a lot of there's a lot of historical context when you

[00:10:32] don't understand the city and what was located.

[00:10:34] I would say all seven of these letters have information in them

[00:10:38] that would have been relevant to their actual city.

[00:10:41] I'm doing Sardis in three weeks.

[00:10:43] And like there's so much going on in the history of Sardis

[00:10:46] that when he talks about living in your reputation and being asleep,

[00:10:49] they were a city that was attacked at night and didn't post guards

[00:10:52] like they were asleep.

[00:10:53] Like there's so much culture stuff.

[00:10:55] And so I think following all the way through, if you take that idea

[00:10:59] to the end of Revelation, you'll find that a lot of the

[00:11:02] there's a lot of ways you can discover how certain symbols had

[00:11:06] cultural meaning in the first century.

[00:11:08] Yeah. But there's not for sure.

[00:11:09] It's it's just guessing.

[00:11:10] So I mean, that was a masterclass on

[00:11:14] on how to read things in context and try to study.

[00:11:17] Yeah. And really be aware of what is at least the issue.

[00:11:21] So amazing.

[00:11:22] And that was a great explanation of that.

[00:11:23] So I hope you feel equipped even through that.

[00:11:25] But let's talk about some of those specific examples then specifically.

[00:11:29] You know, I think that it might be some people that read this

[00:11:31] and are scratching their heads about those 10 days.

[00:11:34] What would that possibly mean?

[00:11:36] Just to kind of give us some application of how to apply

[00:11:39] that masterclass to the actual text here that we're reading.

[00:11:43] You know, when it says 10 days, we know that they were

[00:11:45] persecuted for far longer than 10 days.

[00:11:48] They weren't just thrown in prison.

[00:11:49] It says, you know, some of you will be put in prison to test you

[00:11:52] and you will suffer persecution for 10 days.

[00:11:55] What could that possibly mean?

[00:11:58] Is it really 10 days or is it just talking about a short amount of time?

[00:12:02] Or is it an interesting example?

[00:12:04] Like of all the examples in Revelation, you actually pulled one

[00:12:07] that's really hard because some are easier for me.

[00:12:12] A 10 headed dragon rising out of the ocean

[00:12:15] to me is like, look, even very literalist readers don't believe

[00:12:19] a dragon is going to run out of the ocean.

[00:12:21] Even they would say that must refer to something else.

[00:12:24] 10 days is like that's very specific time period.

[00:12:27] Very specific. Yeah.

[00:12:28] But I also know from history, I read from the stage

[00:12:31] the story of the Bishop of Polycarp, which happened around 150.

[00:12:34] We know it's much longer than 10 days, which was, yeah, 60 years later.

[00:12:37] So they would continue to suffer for more years after that.

[00:12:43] The real persecution would run up through the end of the second century.

[00:12:48] So I would say two potential things, and then I'll sort of come back to the bigger point.

[00:12:53] First option is maybe John was giving a literal message to real people.

[00:13:00] And maybe there was somebody that he knew was going to read that letter

[00:13:03] that was going to be in prison for 10 days. It's very possible.

[00:13:06] If so, you know, then well, it's not for all of us.

[00:13:08] It was just for those people.

[00:13:10] It's also very I'll use the word likely because I likely,

[00:13:15] I don't know, Teter Todd is bending one way a little bit.

[00:13:18] The word 10 has tons of significance

[00:13:22] because Rome was known as the city on 10 Hills.

[00:13:25] So even the 10 had a dragon, the 10 had a beast, like the word 10

[00:13:31] from for a lot of people in the first century would evoke

[00:13:36] Rome. There's also I think you even mentioned some scholars

[00:13:40] have counted and there were 10 emperors before Diocletian,

[00:13:44] who was the last great persecution.

[00:13:46] So either way, 10 feels like it's probably saying

[00:13:51] Rome is going to keep coming at you.

[00:13:54] But it might not.

[00:13:57] And this is where I would come back to maybe the bigger deal.

[00:14:00] When I come to places like that, the most important thing for me is

[00:14:05] is this something to build theology around?

[00:14:09] And the answer is no.

[00:14:11] So I can build theology around, stay faithful,

[00:14:15] don't give in, don't become, you know, don't bow to idols.

[00:14:21] Suffering is part of life.

[00:14:22] Jesus even said his disciples would suffer.

[00:14:25] But 10 days dragons, I'm not sure.

[00:14:29] And I don't hold too tightly to those things,

[00:14:32] which I think is important

[00:14:33] because I think that people can read through Revelation

[00:14:37] and then get hung up on some of this symbolic language

[00:14:40] that's whether it's symbolic, literal, all the different ways

[00:14:43] you can interpret some of this difficult language is called that

[00:14:46] within the text here.

[00:14:48] You can get hung up on those things and create entire doctrines

[00:14:51] based on a minutiae moment within the scripture

[00:14:54] and miss the whole point of it.

[00:14:56] And so, you know, and so that's why I think it's so important

[00:14:59] that we're going through this series

[00:15:01] and we're really looking at what is the point of the correction

[00:15:05] or the encouragement to these churches?

[00:15:07] How do we apply it today to our church and to our own lives

[00:15:10] and so forth?

[00:15:11] And so for for this specific message on Smyrna and Pergamum,

[00:15:15] it really was this idea of fight like heaven.

[00:15:19] Right? Yeah, this idea of like, what does it look like

[00:15:22] to live like Christ would live in the middle of opposition?

[00:15:27] You know, in the climate of persecution,

[00:15:30] what does it look like to do that?

[00:15:31] And then you kind of brought it home to where we live, right?

[00:15:35] We're not facing the persecution like they are.

[00:15:37] Like none of us are being, you know, brought out and fed to lions

[00:15:41] or burned alive or anything like that.

[00:15:44] You know, nothing like that is happening

[00:15:46] from our government or anything like that.

[00:15:48] It's not as difficult to be a Christian as it was then.

[00:15:51] Let's not be delusional, right?

[00:15:53] But we do have some difficulty

[00:15:55] and things feel like they are maybe heading in the wrong direction.

[00:15:58] You know, in our perspective and things like this.

[00:16:01] And then we also have something coming up

[00:16:05] that some Christians, I think a lot of Christians will

[00:16:08] will want to get involved in to some extent

[00:16:11] this presidential election and actually leading up to this message.

[00:16:14] You actually, you know, you've kind of been in this rhythm that

[00:16:17] and here's here's a behind the scene.

[00:16:19] Look, man.

[00:16:20] So you've been in a rhythm that during our staff meetings,

[00:16:22] you'll actually kind of share a little bit of a sermenet

[00:16:27] or an overview of your sermon before you give it on Sunday.

[00:16:30] And during the staff meeting, you kind of really honed in

[00:16:33] on some of your anticipation, your let's call it fear, you know,

[00:16:38] even maybe of how Rice City Church, the people will respond

[00:16:44] in light of this coming presidential election.

[00:16:47] Like what is the climate going to look like

[00:16:49] based on how it looked last time?

[00:16:52] There's some there's some concern for you for you.

[00:16:55] Explain that a little bit.

[00:16:57] That's a lot to unpack.

[00:16:59] Let me take a half step back, OK?

[00:17:03] And give you a little bit even where my brain was at in my in.

[00:17:07] So I had I started my message prep

[00:17:11] historical, right?

[00:17:12] I just started to store.

[00:17:14] I was just looking at some commentary and some books that look into

[00:17:17] some of the ancient world, going back to some of my notes of classes

[00:17:20] I've taken. And I sort of said, OK, here are three things

[00:17:23] that I see in this passage that were coming against them.

[00:17:27] And I sort of brought them together as like government,

[00:17:30] you know, other people culture.

[00:17:33] And technically it was the Jewish people, but I was like, I

[00:17:37] I didn't interpret it, but I tried to make it practical.

[00:17:39] So these were probably people who are close to you,

[00:17:41] people that you would expect to support you. Yeah.

[00:17:45] And then I said all and then I said, well, OK.

[00:17:49] And this is maybe like something that I wrestled a little bit with was

[00:17:55] there was this little side voice in my brain saying, man,

[00:17:59] we don't really suffer.

[00:18:01] Just tell people they're being dumb, you know?

[00:18:03] Oh, could.

[00:18:04] But I was like, well, that's not actually helping anyone

[00:18:07] because there is some suffering.

[00:18:08] It's good.

[00:18:09] It's let's instead of saying you guys are being dumb,

[00:18:12] it's so they have it so much worse.

[00:18:14] I almost had this picture of a child being a child.

[00:18:18] Being like, I don't want to eat this and the parent there starving kids in

[00:18:21] Africa line all the time.

[00:18:23] OK, it's true, but it doesn't actually address the situation facing right now.

[00:18:26] You don't like peace.

[00:18:27] So instead of doing that, how about I try to tone it down

[00:18:32] but acknowledge, right?

[00:18:33] And then because I acknowledge it and we can all acknowledge it,

[00:18:36] we know it's not as bad, but we still have to talk about how to work

[00:18:40] through what is reality.

[00:18:41] And if it's not practical, if it's not like, OK,

[00:18:44] something is happening, it's not as bad.

[00:18:46] But if I don't talk about it, then we don't actually talk about how

[00:18:49] to respond to what actually is happening.

[00:18:50] That's right.

[00:18:51] So what is happening is we did have a president who sent out a dumb tweet

[00:18:55] the day before Easter and I use the word dumb, not just like I disagree

[00:19:00] with your politics, but dumb that like even if I agree with your politics,

[00:19:04] it's still the wrong time to send that tweet.

[00:19:06] You're just you're you're goading people that shouldn't be goaded.

[00:19:09] Yeah.

[00:19:10] We do live in a state that is make, you know, we look at Canada

[00:19:15] and see things they're doing and say, oh, man, please don't let us become like that.

[00:19:18] Like people are literally saying like you can be tried for hate crimes

[00:19:22] and have your tax exempt taken away if you don't do certain things online.

[00:19:26] And there's that feeling or that sense.

[00:19:28] And so there's some realness there.

[00:19:31] And it begins to take root and come home at the election.

[00:19:35] So what I wish I had had more time to do

[00:19:39] and why I like the podcast, even though I wish I wish everyone listened to it.

[00:19:42] So I can know they heard it.

[00:19:44] Here's my challenge and it's all of our challenges.

[00:19:49] No one living in the first century understood democracy.

[00:19:53] They had a republic when their grandparents had a republic,

[00:19:56] but Julius Caesar blew it up.

[00:19:57] Even that wasn't real democracy.

[00:19:59] It was rich white men controlling it.

[00:20:00] Sure.

[00:20:02] We live in a different setting and time and place where

[00:20:07] we shouldn't stand by silently and allow elected rulers to trample

[00:20:13] on what I think are rights of human beings.

[00:20:15] Right. I actually do believe that as a citizen, forget about being a Christian.

[00:20:19] Yeah. As a citizen, like I believe in a system of government

[00:20:23] where we're all involved, where we honor and respect each other

[00:20:27] and fight for the right to exist and hold your beliefs true to yourself.

[00:20:32] So there's a part of me that even if like

[00:20:35] forget about like, you know, being a Christian and Jesus also like

[00:20:38] there's this part of it says, OK, what does it mean to just be

[00:20:40] engaged in the public discourse and involve politically?

[00:20:44] There's nothing wrong with that.

[00:20:45] And I said that at the end, it might have probably got missed

[00:20:48] whether people were angry or happy with what I was saying.

[00:20:50] But I said there's nothing wrong with being involved politically.

[00:20:52] There's certainly other wrong with voting.

[00:20:53] I believe voting is what, you know, should citizens vote?

[00:20:56] And yeah, sure, be involved.

[00:20:59] Maybe I'm going to be hypocritical last time.

[00:21:01] I was like, do you vote?

[00:21:02] I have always voted until recently.

[00:21:05] OK. But let me get into that. OK. OK.

[00:21:08] What bothers me?

[00:21:10] And and I I realize that someone might hear this and be like,

[00:21:14] oh, Pete's getting political.

[00:21:16] It's just I can't not get political because it's a political issue.

[00:21:21] But I'm it bothers me because of my religious beliefs.

[00:21:25] What bothers me is when people see things not going the way they want them to.

[00:21:31] There is a way to respond in the public discourse and things

[00:21:36] that is healthy and fine.

[00:21:39] But what Christians have done in the last eight years is

[00:21:44] they've said what we need.

[00:21:47] Is we need to fight like hell.

[00:21:50] So let's find somebody who will fight like hell for us

[00:21:53] in order to protect us.

[00:21:55] It doesn't get us the results we want long term.

[00:21:58] The church didn't grow because people acted like that.

[00:22:02] Christianity didn't flourish when Christians acted that way.

[00:22:06] Christianity flourished and grew when Christians just laid down their rights

[00:22:10] and said, we're not going to fight for it.

[00:22:12] We're just going to love people.

[00:22:14] And if it doesn't go our way, we're still going to love people.

[00:22:16] And that became attractive and actually changed people's minds.

[00:22:20] See, the thing is what we're doing is this is all opinion, all opinion.

[00:22:24] I'm not representing the church.

[00:22:25] I'm just talking for myself. OK.

[00:22:26] What we're doing is we're wanting to change the world

[00:22:29] by getting a bully to fight for us and change laws.

[00:22:32] But laws don't change people's hearts and minds.

[00:22:35] It doesn't actually change human beings.

[00:22:36] It doesn't change what we think.

[00:22:37] Sure. And it makes them harder when somebody punches you and you punch back.

[00:22:41] All you're doing is escalating.

[00:22:42] You're making things worse.

[00:22:44] Now both people are angry.

[00:22:45] And so the whole political thing over the last, you know, 20 or 30 years,

[00:22:49] there's just been you punch, I punch harder, you punch harder, I punch harder.

[00:22:53] And the Christians have gotten involved in it and it became our thing.

[00:22:56] We'll punch back. You punch us, we'll punch back harder.

[00:22:59] And no one is loving Jesus more because of that.

[00:23:02] It's not like Christianity is shrinking at an exponentially massive rate.

[00:23:07] Churches are dying left and right.

[00:23:09] We're not winning.

[00:23:10] We're not making things better.

[00:23:12] No one's no one is seeing the church get involved in this knockout,

[00:23:16] drag out ugly political warfare and saying, man, I want to be a Christian.

[00:23:20] They're doing the opposite every time this stuff happens.

[00:23:25] I hear from people and I just sit.

[00:23:27] Why I used to be a Christian.

[00:23:28] Not anymore. The way you people handle politics.

[00:23:30] I can't be a part of that.

[00:23:31] I hear that way. I've never heard anyone say, you know, I was an atheist,

[00:23:34] but man, the way that you guys have responded the last eight years, I just got

[00:23:38] to follow this Jesus guy.

[00:23:39] No, I've never heard.

[00:23:40] So I want to kind of get down to that too, because listen,

[00:23:44] whatever particular candidate someone advocates for or votes for,

[00:23:48] I'm OK with it.

[00:23:50] But what I have seen be really destructive is oftentimes

[00:23:54] the way that people advocate or argue for their specific candidate

[00:23:58] or their political stance, anger and anger.

[00:24:01] And also gets really personal because really personal to the point where

[00:24:04] I've heard things like you can't you can't think that way politically

[00:24:08] and still call yourself a Christian.

[00:24:09] Like like it gets extreme in those moments

[00:24:13] and they can actually set brother against brother and family against family.

[00:24:16] And not and I'm not talking about in the way that Jesus

[00:24:20] and our allegiance to him can polarize us.

[00:24:22] I'm talking about politically, our allegiance goes for some other viewpoint.

[00:24:26] And that's our source of polarization.

[00:24:29] Man, what does it look like for a Christian?

[00:24:31] You know, aside from advocating for any particular candidate,

[00:24:35] what does it look like for a Christian to be a responsible citizen

[00:24:39] to maybe be involved in the political process in a responsible

[00:24:43] good citizenship type of way and yet also represent Christ.

[00:24:48] Well, especially here's here's what I think is a key thing,

[00:24:52] especially to those that you disagree with, because oftentimes

[00:24:56] that's where the where the barrier comes up.

[00:24:58] And it's like, man, I don't even and yet God is like calling us.

[00:25:01] No, you reach across the barrier and and you love people where they're at.

[00:25:06] Right? Like you break down those things and you build bridges instead.

[00:25:10] What does it look like for a Christian to build bridges

[00:25:13] in a political climate that would want to divide parties?

[00:25:17] What does it look like for a Christian to actually be a unifying factor

[00:25:20] rather than a divisive one? Man, that's tough.

[00:25:26] We'll get into this more on Sunday as we talk about the next church.

[00:25:31] I had a phrase that when I was starting this message,

[00:25:34] sometimes I like title my messages and I didn't actually end up using this title.

[00:25:38] I wanted to direction my phrase was

[00:25:41] be odd but not at odds.

[00:25:44] Yeah. And I know Jesus was group notes that Jesus was odd

[00:25:48] but not at odds.

[00:25:49] So you say, well, Jesus had some pretty mean things to say.

[00:25:51] And I think it's like, yeah, but who do you talk to?

[00:25:53] Who is he mean to?

[00:25:55] When Jesus had mean things to say, it was almost always to religious fellow.

[00:25:59] His fellow religious people who were coming at him.

[00:26:03] He didn't. I mean, it wasn't to like the stranger.

[00:26:07] The outcat. Like, I mean, he didn't talk to.

[00:26:09] I don't see him talking to Romans that way, actually.

[00:26:12] It was like an internal dialogue thing.

[00:26:15] He was having a difficult conversation with his brothers and sisters

[00:26:18] who shared his beliefs, but he was definitely odd.

[00:26:22] He was weird.

[00:26:23] He didn't he didn't.

[00:26:25] He at no point was he like, oh, the Romans want me to do that.

[00:26:28] OK, I'll do that.

[00:26:29] No, he was fine saying, no, no, that's not what we're going to do.

[00:26:32] That's not who I am.

[00:26:33] I'm not going to do that.

[00:26:34] But he didn't have to like punch anyone or like right.

[00:26:38] So even what he was like.

[00:26:42] And I know it's difficult to try and get practical, but like

[00:26:45] if I can't be.

[00:26:48] Oddly committed to beliefs that the culture doesn't like.

[00:26:51] And still love people and Christianity doesn't work.

[00:26:56] So like when I mean, none of it works.

[00:26:59] The whole point of Christianity is calling me to be different

[00:27:02] and distinct and odd with but still love people like that.

[00:27:05] And if I can't do that, then the whole thing's nonsense.

[00:27:08] But I can do that because Jesus did that.

[00:27:11] And then he called me to follow him.

[00:27:13] So I would just say, like in my own life.

[00:27:17] I have to admit right off the bat, partly because I'm just

[00:27:20] partly because I work at a church and partly because I'm a massive introvert.

[00:27:25] I don't have a ton of relationships with people that aren't

[00:27:28] maybe like Christians as a pastor.

[00:27:30] You know, I a lot of my free time ends up spending with people

[00:27:33] that want to talk about pastor things.

[00:27:35] Yeah. But even but I do connect with people that aren't.

[00:27:39] I'm not fighting with anybody.

[00:27:42] I don't get online and fight with people.

[00:27:43] I don't comment on people's posts.

[00:27:44] Like I just I feel I don't personally feel like I can't.

[00:27:50] Like tell people what I believe without being a jerk

[00:27:54] and feel like I have to war with that.

[00:27:56] That's good because it's misplaced strength.

[00:27:59] What do you mean by that?

[00:28:00] I like let's use a boxing analogy, right?

[00:28:03] There's two ways that you can show strength when you're a boxer.

[00:28:05] You can have a powerful strong punch like Tyson.

[00:28:09] Yeah. Or you can have a really powerful strong chin.

[00:28:12] You can take a punch. Oh wow. Right.

[00:28:14] And so so the call of Jesus is to have a strong chin, right?

[00:28:17] Turn the other cheek.

[00:28:18] There's the old Simpsons episode where Homer like I think wins

[00:28:22] the boxing championship because he can just keep punching him in the head

[00:28:26] and he doesn't feel it.

[00:28:28] But it's but it's and that shows.

[00:28:30] You can't beat him.

[00:28:31] He just gets tired of swinging at him.

[00:28:33] That's a little weird too.

[00:28:34] But but that shows strength just as much if you can take,

[00:28:37] you know, if you can take a punch show strength, right?

[00:28:40] Right. And so oftentimes Jesus is saying, no, I want to fortify edify,

[00:28:44] build you up to be strong so you can be

[00:28:48] a, you know, firmly planted on a firm foundation

[00:28:51] because your strength actually isn't even from you.

[00:28:53] In fact, your your his strength is perfected in our weakness when we decide

[00:28:58] I'm going to depend on you because I'm this strong tower so that when the

[00:29:02] waves come against you like I'm going to hold you firm in your place.

[00:29:05] And so you're not going to be movable.

[00:29:07] But and so you can stay firm to your convictions and what God calls you

[00:29:10] to be and what God calls you to believe in and and stick to.

[00:29:14] But at the same time, you're not aggressively a puncher, right?

[00:29:19] Where you're trying to like punch everyone else around you that doesn't agree

[00:29:22] with you and doesn't want to hold the same stance that you do.

[00:29:25] Like your strength and ultimately Christ's strength is displayed best

[00:29:30] in your ability to be immovable within a culture that's constantly trying

[00:29:34] to move you, not necessarily trying to push culture around like a bully.

[00:29:39] That's kind of what you're saying.

[00:29:40] Yeah, I think if you're going to follow that analogy, I would say, yeah,

[00:29:43] like one is fighting like hell and one is fighting like heaven.

[00:29:46] Because the model of Jesus was to take it like that's the cross.

[00:29:50] Yes, it is.

[00:29:51] That is the cross is if you're the king of the Jews, call upon angels

[00:29:56] and take yourself off this cross.

[00:29:58] Well, he could have.

[00:30:01] He was God.

[00:30:02] He could have just said a word and all the Roman soldiers would have been

[00:30:07] dead and lightning would have like he could have stopped all of it.

[00:30:11] And even in the beginning of his ministry, when Satan came and tempted him

[00:30:15] and he said, if you're hungry, right, turn these into bread, you know?

[00:30:19] And temptation was preparing him for what was going to come in the end

[00:30:22] of like, will you be willing to suffer?

[00:30:25] Because the plan and there's this great moment.

[00:30:28] Oh, man, I'm preaching now.

[00:30:29] Yeah, great moment where Satan says he shows him all the kingdoms of the

[00:30:33] years that I'll give you all of this you bad down to me.

[00:30:36] And when I think so fast thing about that passage is if I'm Jesus.

[00:30:40] I have to assume he already knew he was going to get all that land.

[00:30:44] He knew he knew he was king.

[00:30:46] He created it.

[00:30:47] Right.

[00:30:47] But like what Satan was offering him was something that he was already going to get.

[00:30:52] But what Satan was offering was the ability to skip the pain and suffering

[00:30:56] like God's plan for you to have glory and victory is across.

[00:31:01] Follow my plan, come and fight like hell, and I'll give you everything you want.

[00:31:05] Don't don't follow God's plan of suffering and pain.

[00:31:07] And it's scary.

[00:31:08] It's fearful.

[00:31:09] It doesn't look the way you want it to look.

[00:31:11] Things don't go there's not comfortable.

[00:31:14] You know, you feel doesn't feel good.

[00:31:17] And it's like, but that's actually where victory lands.

[00:31:20] That's real strength is.

[00:31:22] Yeah.

[00:31:22] And I think what's hard is to is, you know, when you talk about this,

[00:31:25] there's so many there's so many.

[00:31:28] You know, if I was if I was if someone was saying all this, I go,

[00:31:31] what about this?

[00:31:31] What are they?

[00:31:31] And there's so many what ifs and what ifs, you know, or should the

[00:31:34] should the allies not have punched back at Hitler, you know, things like that.

[00:31:38] And I get it.

[00:31:38] First of all, what does it look like to stay in the room and says that God is

[00:31:41] marginalized, God has.

[00:31:43] And maybe if I could just sort of stem the Bible says that God has ordained

[00:31:48] meaning given authority to governments in order to protect the weak and

[00:31:54] administer justice.

[00:31:55] So I'm not a pacifist.

[00:31:57] I'm not actually.

[00:31:59] And I want people to hear that I am not a pacifist.

[00:32:01] Like if if a state needs to engage in violent activity to protect people,

[00:32:10] like so be it.

[00:32:11] I actually my opinion, my reading of scripture is God has given the state

[00:32:15] the sword to make that decision.

[00:32:18] So even as a Christian, if my job is to be a police officer or a military

[00:32:22] person or something, that's not what I'm talking about right now.

[00:32:25] I'm talking about living my life as a normal person, feeling like I have

[00:32:29] to fight battles to protect, constantly push back and fight back and get what I

[00:32:33] want. That's the issue.

[00:32:35] So yeah, I mean, I have to chase down the Mustang.

[00:32:38] Right.

[00:32:38] It's just on the Mustang.

[00:32:40] Good example.

[00:32:41] There are people who are supposed to chase down the Mustang, who are the

[00:32:45] ones that know how to do it.

[00:32:46] They're equipped to do it.

[00:32:48] They're the right ones to do it.

[00:32:49] I'm not the right one to do it.

[00:32:49] Yeah.

[00:32:50] So like, I think like where that meets with politics is very hard

[00:32:56] because technically I'm supposed to vote.

[00:32:58] Right.

[00:32:58] It's nothing wrong with me being involved in politics.

[00:33:02] Can I just kind of land this plane here?

[00:33:04] I know it's getting late.

[00:33:05] Yeah.

[00:33:05] And I hope people are still listening at this point.

[00:33:09] The purpose, the goal, the end.

[00:33:12] What am I doing here of this sermon series is not trying to be like,

[00:33:18] Hey, you guys suck.

[00:33:19] Don't do this one.

[00:33:19] It's just to say, look, there are things in our future that have

[00:33:25] the potential to get our church a little off course.

[00:33:27] Yep.

[00:33:28] And one of the things that can get us off course is if as a church,

[00:33:31] we take our eyes off of being a loving and life giving church,

[00:33:34] it brings hope and healing in Jesus' name.

[00:33:36] And we just start to focus too much on politics and suffering

[00:33:40] and all the things going wrong.

[00:33:42] I'm not saying they're not there.

[00:33:43] I'm not saying that maybe as concerned citizens, sometimes

[00:33:46] there's ways to be involved in a healthy way.

[00:33:48] I'm, I'm, we, that's not what I'm saying.

[00:33:50] I'm just saying as a church, I don't want us to fall

[00:33:54] on that trap of being all about politics and elections and all

[00:33:58] the, like every time we meet on the Sunday, it's, oh, things are

[00:34:00] so bad out there.

[00:34:01] Like we know things are bad out there.

[00:34:04] We're called to be a light to do something like we're called.

[00:34:08] But the way we're called to do something about it is by loving

[00:34:10] our neighbors and being hope and healing, not being more violence.

[00:34:14] So this message series is not, hey, if you, if you support

[00:34:18] Trump, you're a bad Christian.

[00:34:19] That's not what I'm saying.

[00:34:21] I'm not at all.

[00:34:22] Like I understand.

[00:34:23] I'm, it's more saying as a church, we're not going to be about that.

[00:34:27] It's not, it's not our mission.

[00:34:28] It's not what we're aiming at.

[00:34:30] Yeah.

[00:34:30] And if, if we're getting too far that way, I want us to course

[00:34:33] correct and say, no, no, we're about hope and healing.

[00:34:36] If there are parts of the being engaged in, in public

[00:34:40] discourse that are healthy and bring hope and healing, let's talk about it.

[00:34:43] Um, but for the most part, like it's just, I don't know,

[00:34:47] I, it hasn't shown itself to bear fruit.

[00:34:50] I think that, you know, if we're to close this out too, as we head

[00:34:54] into this next political season that's coming, it's coming, whether

[00:34:58] we like it or not, we can choose to really fulfill that vision of being

[00:35:03] a loving and life giving people who would bring hope and healing in Jesus' name.

[00:35:07] We can, we can, we can choose to do that.

[00:35:08] And that's all about relationship or we can choose to make sure

[00:35:12] that everyone knows that we're right.

[00:35:14] Yeah.

[00:35:14] And, and I think that we have a choice going into the season.

[00:35:17] Do we want to be people that are known for, for our love that are,

[00:35:22] that are loving people even that we disagree with because we're prioritizing

[00:35:25] relationship first and foremost with Jesus.

[00:35:27] And then with other people, right?

[00:35:29] Are we loving God with our heart, soul, mind and strength

[00:35:32] and then loving our neighbor as ourselves?

[00:35:33] Is that the type of people we are?

[00:35:35] Or are we people that are just right?

[00:35:37] That we know better than everybody else.

[00:35:40] And I implore that we be a church that would be the former.

[00:35:44] Yeah.

[00:35:44] That would be people that would love God and love other people.

[00:35:48] And then if there's things that we disagree about, OK,

[00:35:52] I find that redirection is something that happens best in relationship anyway.

[00:35:57] Yeah. Right?

[00:35:57] Not not in Facebook post, right?

[00:36:01] Not in a picket sign on a street corner

[00:36:05] that's hurling an insult at someone else too.

[00:36:07] You know, like really if you want to redirect in a really healthy way.

[00:36:11] OK, there might be some things that God calls you to do that for.

[00:36:14] I don't know. Right?

[00:36:16] I think it happens most effectively in relationship.

[00:36:19] And so let's be people that would do that, that would wake up rise and shine.

[00:36:23] I mean, to really bring this home that would be loving and life giving

[00:36:26] because that's the thing.

[00:36:26] Our vision statement isn't that right city church becomes a place

[00:36:30] that's loving and life giving that you get hope and healing at.

[00:36:32] That is definitely part of it.

[00:36:34] But it really is that we would become the church, the who and the who is

[00:36:38] the people of right city church that we would become people

[00:36:41] that are loving and life giving who would bring hope and healing

[00:36:45] that's only found in Jesus's name.

[00:36:47] That's our focal point.

[00:36:48] That's our calibration, like a parameter.

[00:36:51] That's what we need to calibrate to.

[00:36:52] That's our true north that we need to keep on pointing back to.

[00:36:55] And so I really appreciate that, man.

[00:36:58] But yeah, man, but I'll tell you what, we definitely dug deeper today.

[00:37:02] So I mean, Peter, he he he and covered some dirt that I was like,

[00:37:06] whoa, OK, he not dirt.

[00:37:09] He uncovered he got deeper than I thought he would get.

[00:37:11] That's what I meant to say. Not dirt.

[00:37:13] But yes, that was a poor choice of words and I not mean that.

[00:37:17] But yes, anyway, he he exposed a little bit more

[00:37:22] the way his brain thinks and some of his own

[00:37:24] stances on different things more than I expected, which is OK.

[00:37:27] But at the end of the day, man, I think that's so important

[00:37:29] that we as a church, we be loving and life giving.

[00:37:32] We focus on bringing hope and healing in Jesus's name.

[00:37:35] So let's do it.

[00:37:36] Awesome. We'll see you guys next time on Digging Deeper.

[00:37:38] Thanks, everybody.