Ep. 34: Jesus, Scripture, & Slavery

[00:00:00] All right. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Like Stars The Podcast. I'm

[00:00:09] the host of the Goodman and today at this episode I'm continuing a sort of series art kind

[00:00:15] of thing I've been doing the last couple episodes of you following with us. This is now

[00:00:18] part three and the focus of these have been sort of difficult or troubling aspects of

[00:00:24] things that Jesus said or did and how he makes sense of them. So if you go back, if you

[00:00:28] haven't followed, I looked at some of the harshest passages of Jesus where he seemed to really

[00:00:34] be coming at people and then on the last episode I looked at places where Jesus almost seemed

[00:00:39] to do something that would get him canceled today in the way that he spoke to people especially

[00:00:43] another woman or a foreigner. We talked about ethnicity and race in each other world and

[00:00:48] on this aspect as I mentioned on the last episode, this episode I am diving in headfirst to

[00:00:54] what is for many people one of the most difficult and problematic aspects of the entire Bible including

[00:01:00] Jesus's own ministry. And I want to talk about the idea of slavery and the reason why I think it's

[00:01:08] so important is because Jesus used the word slave a lot. He talked about slavery, he mentioned them

[00:01:16] in his parables and different things and I think you then follow and trace that through other

[00:01:22] us in New Testament and it just sometimes feels like what's going on here? And this raises big

[00:01:28] questions for us, not just about Jesus and slavery but as Christians who have this long history,

[00:01:33] especially those most of us listening are Americans and we have a long history in our country.

[00:01:37] So how should we understand these passages? What does it mean? How should we think through the

[00:01:42] way the Bible talks about this issue? Yeah, so no big deal. Hang with me, this might be one of the

[00:01:48] longer podcasts I do. We'll see but I think it's an important issue. It's actually as I've taken

[00:01:54] questions from people, it's a question that's come up kind of often and I've always said yeah,

[00:01:57] I'm going to really tackle that in an episode eventually so here we go. Before I do, just some

[00:02:03] of the normal housekeeping stuff, I always say invite you to continue to subscribe if you're not already

[00:02:08] subscribed to our YouTube channel, our YouTube channel, there's just me what am I saying hour?

[00:02:13] If you can share this with people, maybe you have some friends or people that you know

[00:02:17] that have asked you, well how do you make sense of slavery in the Bible? And this might be an episode

[00:02:21] that you consider sharing with them. You can also find all their kind of stuff on my personal

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[00:02:53] be helpful. And so also every episode I do you guys know there's always like the silly moment where

[00:03:01] I give a sponsor and I think I'm going to skip the silliness for this one. I get I just said our

[00:03:06] topic is too heavy, it's too serious to be cracking dumb jokes and so I want to keep it sort of whatever

[00:03:10] maybe maybe if there was a sponsor it would be whoever makes those big inflatable life preservers

[00:03:16] you throw to people who fall overboard because let's be honest I'm diving into a topic that feels

[00:03:23] a bit like that for me. So we'll see how this goes but I think it's important I want to talk about

[00:03:28] it one of my heart's desires of this podcast is that this would be a time and place that

[00:03:35] we could wrestle with tough issues together and that's what I've done throughout the many episodes

[00:03:39] I'm we're in the 30s now. I've really tried to wrestle with and tackle some of the difficult

[00:03:44] passages and different difficult aspects of faith and this is a big one so we're going to go for it

[00:03:51] so let's do it together here we go. All right for many Bible readers if you're listening to this

[00:03:58] myself included there is an uncomfortable and thus often ignored imagery and idea presented

[00:04:04] throughout the scriptures the reference to both literal and metaphorical slavery. In fact

[00:04:10] and this is something that I also want to put forward at the beginning. This term is such a

[00:04:15] negative and for good reason it's such a negative strong reaction to it especially because of the

[00:04:20] history of it in America that most contemporary translations of the Bible have followed the King James

[00:04:26] and actually there's a Hebrew word a bed and then there's the Greek word dolas. Both of those words

[00:04:32] mean slave they refer to a slave but oftentimes your Bible will actually interpret them as servant

[00:04:38] so as a normal reader of scripture if you don't know the original language it's just no people don't

[00:04:42] find you might not even understand how often slavery is actually in the Bible because you're reading

[00:04:48] servant you know become a servant of all serve each other and you're not even realizing that it's

[00:04:52] actually be a slave act like a slave this is the kind of language it's often in the Bible

[00:04:58] we see it in the Old Testament it's everywhere Jesus often referenced it and that's why I'm sort of

[00:05:02] putting it as part of this series. He told parables about the wise and faithful slave and the good

[00:05:07] and loyal slave and the bad slave and what does it mean to be a slave towards each other he used

[00:05:12] this language dolas all the time and at no point in Jesus' measure that we can tell from the

[00:05:18] gospels if he actually say oh by the way this is wrong this is sin owning human beings is sin

[00:05:25] Jesus never says that and then you don't see it really in the New Testament much and really the

[00:05:30] early church continued to accept slavery as a cultural reality and did very little to speak against

[00:05:36] it or attempt to end the practice for 1,500 years in some ways and we'll get in a little bit.

[00:05:44] In fact early on in the church Christians could be slave owners a letter of the New Testament is

[00:05:49] written to a slave owner named Philemon there's no major objection from it from Paul or any other

[00:05:55] New Testament writers. In fact Paul's letter to Philemon suggests quite the opposite and this

[00:06:01] was a letter that's been used for years to uphold the practice of slavery especially in the American

[00:06:06] colonies where Christian slave owners would pull out Philemon say look or collotions are different

[00:06:11] places like the bible says obey your master slaves are all these kind of things and again at no

[00:06:17] point do Jesus or any of these bible authors treat slavery imagery as wrong or sinful we don't get

[00:06:24] that sense from it so regardless of our translation decisions the truth is the idea of slavery is all

[00:06:31] over the Bible both old and New Testament even in the teachings of Jesus so how do we even think about

[00:06:39] us people who believe the bible is God's inspired word that Jesus is God made flesh to walk among us

[00:06:45] telling us how to live was he okay with slavery is it true that the bible actually promotes it

[00:06:52] which if you would gone if you'd go in a time machine and go back to the Southern colonies 200

[00:06:57] years ago you would have Christian pastors getting on stages saying holding up bible saying slave

[00:07:03] submit to your master's slavery is God's will and all these kind of things so we're not talking about

[00:07:08] just 2000 years ago we're talking about all good portion of human history since Jesus the church

[00:07:15] Christians have had sort of this uncomfortable relationship to slavery now before I really get into it

[00:07:22] and I just want you to know this is a this is a hard topic both because of we're wrestling with

[00:07:27] the bible itself God's word we're trying to figure out how to interpret it properly how to think

[00:07:32] properly about it but we're also dealing with an issue that is so appropriately raw in our culture

[00:07:40] today here in America race relations like let's go back a little bit race relationships in our

[00:07:50] country are are strained for real reasons because we have this terrible history of how an entire

[00:07:57] ethnic group of people were treated through slavery in our country so I want you to know as we walk

[00:08:04] through this it's important for me that I'm not tiptoeing around truth it's important that I'm not

[00:08:10] you know well let's not make a big deal out of this and we're going to get a little bit but I also

[00:08:14] want you to know that at times if it comes across insensitive or that I'm not maybe giving enough

[00:08:20] credence to the damage that was done please know that I recognize it I do what was done in our

[00:08:26] country is horrible and as you're going to see it here in a moment from me like I'm certainly not

[00:08:30] going to go about defending slavery by any means but I just want you to know that it is a tough topic

[00:08:34] to talk about because of all the feelings it brings up in our country and in history and even

[00:08:39] friendships that we have with people of different skin colors and things it's evil it was it was

[00:08:44] a horrible horrible evil in our country and throughout history and I want us to acknowledge that

[00:08:50] but at the same time that forces us if we if we look at it in the eye and say that was evil and

[00:08:56] wickedness well then what do we do with the Bible that's the tension that sorry

[00:09:03] that's the tension that I want to talk about uh I acknowledge it as evil we all do

[00:09:09] and yet the Bible doesn't seem to so I told you this is going to be a heavy one

[00:09:14] but I think it's an important one because again if Jesus is fully God if the Bible is the

[00:09:19] inspired word of the Lord how could an evil thing like slavery not be blatantly condemned instead

[00:09:25] just sort of be flippantly used in some ways so what I want to do is this I want to start first

[00:09:30] with I think when it comes to you how do I address or think through this issue I want to start with

[00:09:35] the opposite direction and work our way back I was talking with someone even just this morning

[00:09:39] because I mentioned those in his podcast and they made a comment to me they're doing come a Bible

[00:09:42] reading project and they're oh the person I talked about actually mentioned slavery and they were

[00:09:47] talking oh really what did they have to say and ironically their answer to slavery in the Bible

[00:09:52] was the exact opposite of what I'm about to tell you their response was well actually you need

[00:09:59] to distinguish between what we might call antebellum slavery pre civil war American slavery

[00:10:06] and ancient Roman slavery they were different things and in fact the slavery you see in the Bible

[00:10:12] it wasn't as bad it was more like being a servant that's why the Bible is interchangeable servant

[00:10:18] slave kind of the same thing because it's kind of the same as just being somebody servant a house made

[00:10:22] or working for a boss you know if the boss was good it was good if it was bad it was bad let me just

[00:10:27] say this okay categorically I try to give people grace when I disagree with them that is not true

[00:10:35] okay if you've heard that the person saying it is misinformed they're wrong it is not true

[00:10:43] when you and I feel the need to respond to the issue of slavery in the Bible which I'm trying to do right

[00:10:48] now how you should not respond don't say that slavery wasn't that bad that is an inappropriate

[00:11:01] uninformed simply not true response it's not true historically and it's very insensitive to people

[00:11:08] that continue to still live with some of the pain from prior abuse slavery was is and always was

[00:11:15] horrible so if you go back 2000 years it wasn't that much different than we want to say that because

[00:11:22] it makes us feel better but it wasn't true a slave in the ancient world was property it was someone

[00:11:27] who belonged literally was owned by somebody else they were absent of the right to determine the

[00:11:33] course of their own life it's always been how slavery is a servant or a person who just has a boss

[00:11:40] can do whatever they want they can quit they can yell at their boss they can say I'm done here you

[00:11:45] can't control me a slave was cattle basically the property of someone else that had no rights you

[00:11:51] couldn't quit you couldn't walk away you couldn't say no you couldn't put up a fight it was not

[00:11:57] like being a servant or being someone that just had a job you were owned by somebody else and your

[00:12:04] life's direction was determined by that other human being that owned you you had no rights for

[00:12:09] yourself and you could not determine the direction of your own life the Greek term for such a person

[00:12:14] who was owned was do lots now here's why I want to point this out in Greek they had a word for a

[00:12:21] servant d'Aachanas it's where Christians get the word deacon a diaconus was somebody that served

[00:12:26] other people of their own choice of their own will so a person that went home at night and still had

[00:12:31] their own life was a diaconus a do loss was somebody that did not go home at night they didn't have

[00:12:37] another life they had no freedom they couldn't quit and that is the word most often used in these

[00:12:43] new testament passages when when sometimes we translate do lots of servant and we shouldn't

[00:12:47] we're only doing it because we're trying to be sensitive in the word slave is so harsh a do

[00:12:52] loss was always a slave now there are different ways you became a slave and I even heard like well

[00:12:57] they said that the reason why it was different was because in the ancient world slavery was only a

[00:13:01] matter of you couldn't pay your debt so you had to work it off also not true that's not true

[00:13:08] yes sometimes slavery was the result of you being in debt and being unable to pay but here's

[00:13:13] the thing most often if you got in debt and couldn't pay your debts as a male you weren't selling

[00:13:19] yourself into slavery you were selling your wife or your kids into slavery so the idea of self

[00:13:24] sale was common but it most often wasn't me selling myself and just to be clear you weren't just

[00:13:30] working off your debt okay it wasn't like oh I owe you a thousand dollars so I'll be your slave

[00:13:34] until the thousand dollars is paid no no no you were literally selling yourself permanently forever

[00:13:40] you were now owned but that wasn't even though it's not like that was the only way to become slaves

[00:13:45] you also had this whole system of child abandonment where abortions in the ancient world were basically

[00:13:51] like you'd have the baby and then just leave it outside the die if you didn't want it and there's

[00:13:56] a very distinct difference between how Christians respond to that and how the rest of the world

[00:13:59] oftentimes slave owners would just grab these babies and raise them as slaves many slaves were

[00:14:04] prisoners of war the Roman Empire was expanding around the world and conquering territories everybody

[00:14:09] they conquered they would make them slaves you weren't selling yourself into this because you made

[00:14:13] a decision your city was conquered and now you are owned by another human being sometimes it

[00:14:18] was based on being a criminal most often though here's the key most often in the ancient world

[00:14:24] all the way up until antebellum slavery in the 1800s of America the most common way you became a

[00:14:30] slave was that your parents were slaves and you were born into it if you owned another human being

[00:14:35] and they had a child you owned that child so to say that slavery in the ancient world was different

[00:14:41] because well it was just trying to work off money who's money are you working out of your

[00:14:45] born a slave nobody's you're born into an institution that's already abusive and it was abusive

[00:14:51] now there is one difference okay and I do want you to know this slavery was more of a social

[00:14:58] convention whereas for those of us that have this history in America slavery has a very racial element

[00:15:06] in American history so that is different people weren't enslaved in the ancient world because

[00:15:13] of their skin color that came much later into our sort of modern world when we started to

[00:15:19] enslave African and South American peoples so it wasn't a racial issue but that's really the only

[00:15:25] difference other than that it was just because it wasn't racial doesn't mean it was humane it still

[00:15:31] wasn't the majority of slaves in the ancient world faced little joy or hope for the future and likely

[00:15:37] resent it even hated their position in life so much so the title the word slave in the ancient

[00:15:42] world was an insult it was to disgrace to the Romans they were considered to be the lowest grade of

[00:15:47] humans so listen I want you hear this if the term slave is uncomfortable for you and I today

[00:15:53] it would have been no less degrading and uncomfortable and insulting in the first century

[00:15:58] it wasn't that different if you were to look at a slave's life it was tragic it's depressing

[00:16:04] they were not legally permitted to marry you could enter into a committed relationship only if

[00:16:08] your owner approved of it and usually the owner only approved because they saw it as a way to sort

[00:16:13] of keep you in line and keep you working because they knew they could take your spouse away from

[00:16:17] you and tell me what and most slave transactions were singular meaning you could be sold to somebody

[00:16:23] else without your spouse or without your children imagine that imagine being separated from your entire

[00:16:28] family at the whim of someone that owns you and wants to sell you or wants to sell one of your kids

[00:16:32] women were usually bought and sold for the purpose of breeding it was the primary to

[00:16:36] wait a grow your slave trip you'd buy a woman and then you'd own her kids and oftentimes they

[00:16:41] would consider their most valuable child bearing year starting at 13 or 14 13 or 14 year old girls

[00:16:46] were being purchased in order to breed more slaves how could you possibly ever say slavery wasn't

[00:16:53] that bad an ancient world and children could be sold alone separate from their families I could

[00:16:58] just take your child and sell it to somebody else and oftentimes sell them to people great

[00:17:02] isn't the way you might never see your child your parent ever again for the rest of your life

[00:17:06] families could be broken up if the owner died and they they were inherited by the kids and the

[00:17:10] kids just wanted to break them up only the master had the ability to keep families together which

[00:17:15] often was just a carrot on a stick like I'm going to sell your wife and your kids if you don't do

[00:17:19] what I tell you imagine that life a slave who had children of wife would be far more likely to

[00:17:25] sort of act we ask and give in and do what they were told to do over losing your family all slaves

[00:17:32] were at the end of the day property and their financial value always outweighed family connections

[00:17:36] or emotions and slave dealers would abuse slaves to help them sell including castration public

[00:17:43] humiliation there was constant sexual exploitation forced prostitution by the owners

[00:17:49] the owner could do whatever they wanted with their slaves anything they wanted there was no you

[00:17:54] could do whatever you wanted your slave you could even murder them it was your right physical punishment

[00:17:59] was the norm beating, flagging free reign to whatever there are stories of truly sadistic behavior

[00:18:05] with no restraint on the part of owners so please please please don't try to defend the Bible

[00:18:13] by giving this ridiculous argument that ancient slavery wasn't that bad it was it was terrible it

[00:18:19] was horrible that's just a fact of life it was by and large a horrible existence that no one would

[00:18:26] ever willingly choose for themselves if they had a choice okay so that's the start oh my goodness

[00:18:32] of bleak yes it's bleak we're talking about a horrible horrible evil so if it was an evil why is

[00:18:40] the Bible seem to promote it well this would be my second response i would say first of all don't

[00:18:46] defend the Bible by saying it wasn't that bad on the other hand i also don't think it's any more

[00:18:53] true that the Bible is what i would call pro slavery the Bible is not pro slavery and i want to make

[00:18:59] a distinction there in the Old Testament slavery is allowed similarly to how it allows divorce but we

[00:19:05] know that God isn't for divorce it doesn't mean it thinks it's great or that it's God's will slavery

[00:19:11] is not part of creation so there's polygamy in the Old Testament it doesn't mean that God intended

[00:19:18] for people to marry multiple spouses it just meant that started to happen so there were laws that

[00:19:23] said you may own slaves but anytime it talked about being able to own slaves what's important is and

[00:19:29] this is this is a distinction but i want you to hear it there's a difference between saying go make

[00:19:34] slaves of people because it's good and saying okay if you're going to have slaves here's the way

[00:19:40] that you need to treat them and not treat them so it's similar to the divorce issue in the Old

[00:19:45] Testament the Bible does allow men to divorce their wives but in doing so it puts protections around

[00:19:52] the women and then later Jesus would say i never wanted you to get divorced i was just doing that

[00:19:56] because you were abusing those women i was weird God was trying to stop it and there's something similar

[00:20:01] happening in the Old Testament you know killing a slave was now being punished among the Jews

[00:20:06] slaves were able to rest on the Sabbath they were not to enslave their own people there's there were

[00:20:09] some rules that started to bring some like no we're not going to treat people this way which was

[00:20:13] different than the rest of the world now it is in the Old Testament right it's there much like the

[00:20:18] rest of the broken world of the day but that doesn't mean it celebrates it or calls on humans to continue

[00:20:24] the practice so the Old Testament contains slavery and it puts limits on it but it's not pro slavery

[00:20:31] it's not like it doesn't say like love your neighbor love God and make slaves of nations no

[00:20:36] it says love your neighbor love God in the realm of slavery here's things you're not supposed to do

[00:20:43] the New Testament i think is there's a similar vein to it okay and let me walk this through

[00:20:47] um the New Testament does create references to slavery in terms of commands or ways to live it never

[00:20:55] says slavery is good or go make slaves what it often does in books like collotions Ephesians

[00:21:01] Titus Timothy and Faleemann we're forgetting to oftentimes the Bible wrestles with how a Christian

[00:21:09] who now has chosen to follow Jesus should live their lives if they're a slave it never tells anyone

[00:21:15] they should own people and there are a few passages that seem to undermine it rather it speaks into

[00:21:20] what does it look like to live your life now as a follower of Jesus in the world in which you live

[00:21:25] you live in a world system that that this is part of it how should you live your life so what

[00:21:31] we need to be careful is when we take passages in the New Testament that talk about slavery or seem

[00:21:36] to speak two slaves and say look the Bible is upholding slavery there's a difference between upholding

[00:21:41] slavery and saying the institution of slavery is a good thing we should do this versus if you are a

[00:21:48] slave let me talk to you right now and that's more what the New Testament is doing um so example in

[00:21:53] in Titus Paul says this teach slaves to be subject to their masters and everything please them not

[00:21:58] talk back to them okay look Titus upholding slavery well keep reading don't steal from them show

[00:22:04] them you can be trusted so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive

[00:22:10] well you can't take the first passage be subject to your master and ignore the reason Paul gives for

[00:22:16] it Paul is not upholding slavery he's saying if you are a slave you actually have an opportunity

[00:22:22] to live in such a way that your faith in Jesus becomes attractive to your slave owner that's the

[00:22:26] passages point um in second in first Peter 2 he says this he says show proper respect to everyone

[00:22:34] love the family of believers fear God honor the emperor honor the emperor the emperor was a pagan

[00:22:40] sadistic evil human being who took Christians and put them on spikes and lit them on fire in order

[00:22:47] to light up his surrounding courtyard to have a party that was the emperor and Peter said honor him

[00:22:53] does that mean that he was promoting the emperor or thought the emperor was great no he was telling

[00:22:57] us something about how to deliver lives next verse slaves in reverent fear of God submit yourself to

[00:23:02] your masters oh look he's upholding slavery keep reading not only to those who are good and

[00:23:07] consider it but also those who are harsh for it's commendable if someone bears up under pain

[00:23:12] of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God how is it your credit if you receive a

[00:23:16] beating for doing wrong and enduring it if you suffer for doing good this is commendable notice

[00:23:21] what Peter is doing here he's not upholding slavery he's not saying it's good he's not saying this

[00:23:26] is a wonderful thing we should all be doing he's not saying it's God's plan he's saying if you are a

[00:23:30] slave again think about living your life this way think about choosing to have a certain attitude

[00:23:36] and a certain approach that will then actually make Christianity attractive to the people in the same

[00:23:41] way of honoring the emperor wasn't saying the emperor is good he was saying this is how as Christians

[00:23:45] we should approach life it's not pro slavery it's about choosing to have a certain kind of attitude

[00:23:51] even in bad situations even Paul's slave letter to Philemon which we're going to get into a little more

[00:23:57] isn't lifting up slavery as a good thing he's actually addressing the relationship between two

[00:24:02] Christians and trying to work through what does it look like for them to actually love each other

[00:24:07] and be in community despite these really weird and awkward relationships that were former slave and

[00:24:11] master okay so the we don't respond to slavery by saying it wasn't bad it was terrible on the

[00:24:19] other hand it's also not fair to say the Bible's pro slavery there's nowhere in the Bible that

[00:24:24] we see like God is saying slavery is my plan slavery is a good thing it's not lifted up or exalted

[00:24:29] as a positive wherever it's mentioned it's either speaking to slaves in about how they should live

[00:24:35] out their faith personally or it's speaking to the nation of Israel in general of how they should put

[00:24:40] some rules and restraints about how they treat people and even with Jesus we're going to see it's

[00:24:46] often just as part of his part of him talking to the world so I would say this and this is this

[00:24:51] is the best answer I can give concerning slavery in the scriptures and you might hear me give this answer

[00:24:57] maybe you're you're listening your headphones you're in your car you're like okay here it comes

[00:25:00] here's the answer I've been looking for and what I'm about to say you're going to be like oh that's

[00:25:04] it yeah yeah that's it the Bible is neutral on slavery oh that make you feel uncomfortable

[00:25:15] the Bible is neutral on slavery what I mean by that is it doesn't promote it but it never actually

[00:25:21] comes out and condemns it if it came out and condemned it the last 2000 years would probably

[00:25:26] have looked very differently so let's talk about this a little bit because maybe that made you

[00:25:31] uncomfortable and it makes me uncomfortable but I do want to talk about it slavery was common okay

[00:25:38] it was common it was a generally accepted practice throughout the Roman Empire and had been for

[00:25:43] centuries it was so conventional in fact that some scholars estimate that in the city of Rome itself

[00:25:49] as many as a third of all the people that lived in Rome were in some form of indentured slavery

[00:25:56] so this makes it reasonable to to assume that a proportion of slave and free was likely evident

[00:26:03] within the Christian community as well so many people were probably like if you just say if a third

[00:26:08] of the people were slaves then a third of the Christians are probably slaves and some of the

[00:26:13] slave owners are probably Christians and we see this even going back to Israel's history they

[00:26:19] were slaves they came out of slavery so there's a sense of freedom that exists within Israel a sense

[00:26:26] of liberation from slavery but at the same time there's just a general acknowledgement that slavery is

[00:26:32] just kind of taken for granted as a part of life in their world they sort of accept it without

[00:26:37] objection or question and use it in their common vernacular and speech so they it's just around

[00:26:43] them it's like the era that they breathe at the time it was so this means that if you it makes sense

[00:26:48] then you think about how it was a common backdrop to stories or narratives that many people including

[00:26:54] slaves themselves understood in the Old Testament the Jews appeared to understand themselves as still

[00:26:59] being slaves no longer to Egypt but now to God in a different way we'll get that in a second we

[00:27:05] had essentially sort of transferred masters from Pharaoh to God we see some Leviticus and Psalms

[00:27:11] they believe they belong to God or his possession they were his slaves that he had the right to do with

[00:27:16] them what he wanted so for them the imagery of the picture of slavery wasn't completely upturned

[00:27:21] or undone it was just sort of transferred but slavery was still just a part of their lives

[00:27:26] and this is really the key to how it's used in the New Testament and by Jesus let me come back to Jesus

[00:27:32] all right so Jesus references slaves in some way either as background characters or the principal

[00:27:38] element in 13 of his parables 13 of his parables use slave terminology in various elements

[00:27:46] if it's direct teaching or whatever so we have to admit that well at no point is slavery ever

[00:27:53] explicitly sanctioned Jesus is never like slavery is good do that um he never actually condemns

[00:27:59] he never says let me tell you a story there was a guy who was a slave which was wicked and evil

[00:28:03] and you shouldn't slave people he never does that um maybe he did and it wasn't but it's not written

[00:28:08] down it's not in the gospels again it doesn't mean he approved of it he never affirmed it he never

[00:28:14] said slaves be submissive except through a lot um only that he spoke of it as a regular reality

[00:28:21] of their world it's just an accepted part of their of of their culture and so it was used

[00:28:27] readily and comfortably as stories um maybe like and i'm not trying to draw comparison here but think

[00:28:33] about like if you're gonna tell parables to a group of farmer and fisherman you're gonna tell

[00:28:38] parables about farming and fishing if there's a bunch of people in this crowd and 30% of them are

[00:28:44] in some form of slavery will you end up using stories about their life you end up telling parables

[00:28:48] about slavery right think about that if i'm talking to 100 people and 30 of them are in some

[00:28:54] form of slavery which this might be extreme i'm not saying it's such a true but just get the picture

[00:28:58] in your head it would be very normal for me to try to connect with that audience to use an example

[00:29:04] that they obviously understood and all the people around them understood slavery was a normal part

[00:29:07] of their world so when Jesus is telling parables that include slavery he isn't upholding the institution

[00:29:14] he's saying oh here you go because i use this parable i'm pro slavery he was commuting to a group

[00:29:20] of people who were already in that life we're already aware of it who lived it and understood the

[00:29:25] implications of it um it's not to say that that's the way the world should be that's not what Jesus

[00:29:32] was doing with parables it was simply speaking into and using examples from the world they already

[00:29:37] lived in and i think you see this continue in the epistles as well the letters um they reveal

[00:29:43] to a continuation of Jesus's sort of slavery metaphor with numerous references to us now being

[00:29:49] dolos doloy of christ slaves of christ especially the church leaders who were supposed to act this way

[00:29:54] because Jesus himself acted like a slave when he watched feet um and were called to give a slave

[00:29:59] service to to be slaves to each other and to god so they called themselves slaves which is very

[00:30:06] interesting right look the Christians actually started using slave language about themselves

[00:30:12] why what's going on here why would Jesus use this language why would early Christians use this

[00:30:17] language i think right here is where you have a problem the early Christians understood that there

[00:30:23] was a call to follow Jesus in lowering themselves and humbling themselves and serving each other

[00:30:29] and to actually living that way with god so they chose slave language as a way of saying we are bringing

[00:30:35] ourselves down we are choosing to become less the way that Jesus did um and what's more there's

[00:30:42] another aspect of slavery where the roman taketis once described the upholding or denial of faith as

[00:30:48] his primary interest in slaves it was a common view among the ruling class to expect that slaves

[00:30:54] sort of owed their first responsibility to be loyal to their owners and were commended if they were

[00:31:01] if they acted that way out of faith um so you actually see that slavery in some ways represents

[00:31:08] a picture both of following Jesus to lower yourself and serve others to not seek greatness but to

[00:31:13] actually seek the lowest place the way he did and also a picture of obedience and being faithful and

[00:31:19] being submitted so Jesus often talked about the faithful slave who did what was expected of him or

[00:31:25] the unfaithful slave the faithful or loyal slave who did the right thing versus the one that didn't

[00:31:31] he wasn't upholding slavery he wasn't promoting slavery he was saying hey you guys understand this

[00:31:37] this is part of your world your culture you know that when one of you who's a slave does the right

[00:31:41] thing you get commended similarly I'm not not similarly in the sense that you should all be slaves but

[00:31:46] the the the faithful obedience that you're expected is similar to how we are to submit to God and the

[00:31:53] the the way that you have to sort of lower yourself and serve other people who are above you because

[00:31:59] you're a slave I actually want you to carry that mindset even if you're not a slave I want you

[00:32:03] all to live in such a way that you lower your lives and humbly serve each other the way that a slave

[00:32:09] would have to so let me just pause and make sure this is sinking in slavery is a metaphor for the

[00:32:16] early Christians and for Jesus about what it looks like to humbly love and serve each other to become

[00:32:22] the lowest of the low in order to lift other people up and what it looks like to be faithful and loyal

[00:32:29] and and actually serve God what you're supposed to using slavery as a metaphor to gain an

[00:32:35] understanding of that idea does not mean that slavery was being lifted up and promoted and being

[00:32:40] said you should all do this it just means it was part of their life so when I say you know don't

[00:32:46] say that slavery wasn't bad it was but don't say it was pro slavery it wasn't necessarily pro

[00:32:51] slavery in some ways it's just kind of neutral towards it it's just accepting it's a part of the

[00:32:55] world around them and using it as an example to help people understand it so when Jesus talks about

[00:33:00] slavery he's not pro slavery he's simply taking something from their world and speaking about it okay

[00:33:08] let me keep going here and because you're probably hearing this and maybe another question is

[00:33:12] popping into your head why doesn't the Bible just condemn it if it's wrong if it's a sin why

[00:33:19] just accept it as a normal part of life and not say anything overly negative about it and this is

[00:33:26] tough and I want to like I mentioned this podcast is probably going to be a bit longer I can already tell

[00:33:30] I'm going longer but you know whatever you can pause this and listen later if you want to

[00:33:34] but I want to dive into this a little bit so it's true it's true and I've heard Christians try to

[00:33:40] get around oh no actually if you if you read this in the original language or whatever no no no

[00:33:45] there really is nowhere in the Bible that it outright condemn slavery um Paul himself seemed to live

[00:33:51] with a bit of a contradiction liberation and equality no longer slave or free were central to his

[00:33:57] message but he also relied on slaveholders to host churches given that house is large enough to

[00:34:03] host churches were likely to be slave owners and there were slaves in the churches we knew that

[00:34:07] so if there's slaves in the churches the household owner is probably a slave owner and while Paul

[00:34:13] sort of recast philemon and onesimus and is led out of philemon as brothers want to slave and

[00:34:18] want an owner calling when philemon the owner to treat onesimus with love he never actually spoke

[00:34:26] against the idea of owning a slave he even sort of recognized philemon's rights as a slave owner like

[00:34:31] legally you can do this I know understand by making that too while there were likely some exceptions

[00:34:38] the early churches didn't require what we call manumission or the release of slavery in order for

[00:34:43] someone to be baptized um and distinctions between gender and slavery continued beyond conversion

[00:34:49] even though Paul seemed to say otherwise so most of the early Christian writings seem to

[00:34:55] clearly enforce the power of slavery while trying to affirm the dignity of the slave almost doing

[00:35:00] what the Old Testament did once again baptism brought no substantial change in the status of slaves

[00:35:07] or necessarily the attitude of their owners towards their freedom people weren't just being released

[00:35:11] because they became Christians so you had households where the owner of the house and the head of the

[00:35:16] household was owned slaves and slaves in the household became Christians and both them were Christians

[00:35:21] and they continued as slave and master and the bible never actually says this is wrong stop doing this

[00:35:28] although you know we'll see it kind of does start to lean in that direction and with the expansion

[00:35:33] and growth of the church in the early centuries up to Constantine and beyond slavery continued to be a

[00:35:39] normal mostly unquestioned practice among believers in fact most respected theologians and pastors

[00:35:48] openly support the practice even approved of beating slaves for their own good and if you're like

[00:35:52] hey that makes me uncomfortable it makes me uncomfortable um Clementeville, Alexandria who's somebody

[00:35:57] that we read his writings and learned from approved of disciplining slaves with violence as did

[00:36:02] John Christostom considered one of the greatest early preachers in the first few centuries he saw

[00:36:06] it necessary for their moral improvement a famous pastor Ambrose spoke of slavery as a way to help some

[00:36:13] game wisdom through a good owner even though he didn't totally affirm slavery in general the famous

[00:36:19] Augustine a saint Augustine saw slavery as a result of sin in a fallen world but also that it was

[00:36:25] kind of necessary so for him it was like that's bad but it's also part of our world

[00:36:29] for a fallen society to function properly we need this internet it's like so you see the way that even

[00:36:34] Christians could could listen to the message of Jesus could hear Christianity could receive the

[00:36:42] spirit and even like the leaders weren't necessarily we need to end slavery some of them were so

[00:36:47] entrenched in that mindset and there were of course Christians against it there were plenty of

[00:36:51] Christians against it we have tons of stories of Christians you know pooling money together to

[00:36:56] try to purchase a slaves freedom or helping people get out of it um Gregory of Nista one of the

[00:37:00] famous early church fathers was one of the first ones to openly condemn the practice in about the

[00:37:05] third or fourth century he he argued that it went against being created in the image of God because

[00:37:09] that was a big deal for him there were Christian movements who would actually work to destroy

[00:37:13] documents detailing slave ownership and help them go free um and you know they're even some that

[00:37:19] acted violently towards slaveholders this would continue for the next 1800 years there were always

[00:37:24] sort of factions some Christians were like opposed some Christians were in favor some Christians

[00:37:29] sort of just lived in the middle I would say most of them probably just lived in the middle and it's

[00:37:32] just part of life um so you have examples of churches using a common treasury to buy freedom and

[00:37:38] all these kind of things so at least some congregations understood freeing slaves uh and being a morally

[00:37:45] right thing to do and again you see this even in in the Americas and in England in the

[00:37:51] in the centuries towards the end of slavery's time where you had Christians that were upholding it

[00:37:55] and standing on stages with a Bible preaching slaves obey your masters and other Christians like William

[00:38:01] Miblefors this is wicked and evil we need to stop this that duality that tension has existed almost as

[00:38:07] long as the Christian church has existed so let me sort of land this plane not in a way that's

[00:38:13] gonna give you total satisfaction but I do think we'll help us think through maybe maybe process

[00:38:20] why why is this why didn't the Bible just outright say this is wrong the Bible has no problem

[00:38:28] saying certain sexual practices are wrong it had no problem saying murder is wrong right

[00:38:32] it had no Jesus had no problem saying I don't want you to get divorced why didn't he say oh

[00:38:37] and I don't want you to own slaves either why um why didn't Paul or the New Testament authors come

[00:38:42] out against it and come out swinging the way they did about other moral issues and all I can do

[00:38:48] at this point is give you some thoughts some ideas I don't have a solid answer for this um like

[00:38:54] again I know some Christians were opposed to it and some probably were fine with it especially if

[00:38:58] you own slaves you're probably fine with it uh you know if it didn't affect you you probably were like

[00:39:03] I don't know whatever but that really kind of sets my first why and I'm saying possibly right

[00:39:10] I'm not I'm possibly it's possible that it was the law of the land and coming out against it was more

[00:39:17] than this already shaky and persecuted early church could deal with so when Paul writes his letter

[00:39:23] to Philemon and he sends back this runaway slave no vinesmus I'm not gonna cover this letter in

[00:39:28] detail but you can read yourself he was doing with the law required Paul could actually get a lot

[00:39:33] of trouble if he was harboring around away slave the law required him to do this and so the early

[00:39:38] church was already seen as seditious anti empire opposed the government and Paul had already

[00:39:44] started a riot and Ephesus just speaking against their goddess imagine if this early church started

[00:39:49] saying a foundational aspect of your entire economy is sin uh a third the people living room are

[00:39:55] being inappropriately held captive maybe maybe maybe don't know maybe Paul knew the best he could

[00:40:02] do was to undermine it um so you read his letter to Philemon or his command you know it's like in

[00:40:09] Ephesians 6 he says you know slaves obey your masters but then he turns and looks at the masters and

[00:40:14] says masters treat your slaves very differently than was common in the world um and rethink that

[00:40:20] there's no favoritism in the kingdom in collotions 4-4 he says masters provide your slaves with what is

[00:40:25] right and fair nobody in the ancient world had to provide their slaves with anything much less

[00:40:31] that which was fair he says because you know you have a master in heaven Paul is not speaking

[00:40:36] directly against slavery but he is starting to undermine he's starting to speak to the way that

[00:40:40] we're treating each other and seeing each other in 1 Timothy 6 those who have believing masters

[00:40:45] he's speaking the slaves should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers

[00:40:49] so you should treat them a certain way as a Christian instead they should serve them even better

[00:40:55] because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the well for their slaves

[00:40:59] now just think about that passage who is Paul speaking to you right now is he speaking to slaves

[00:41:06] their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves

[00:41:11] I actually think Paul is doing an underhanded comment here in 1 Timothy 6 I think he knows that

[00:41:17] masters are reading that sentence and he's actually speaking to slaves but he's speaking through

[00:41:22] them and he's saying something to slave owners these people are fellow believers and you should be

[00:41:28] devoted to their welfare so Paul isn't throwing the whole thing up and we need to stop this

[00:41:33] in starting on the riot instead he's planting these seeds in his letters about hey think about this

[00:41:40] other person that you own differently now that you're in Christ and this is what he says to

[00:41:45] Philemon rather than thinking as a slave begin to think of him as a brother and those would actually

[00:41:50] be the seeds that would eventually undermine the whole thing when they actually started to rethink

[00:41:55] the whole concept and say wait a second how can I own somebody if they're a brother of sister

[00:42:00] in Christ well those thoughts never existed slavery had been going on for as long as humans had

[00:42:05] the ability to enslave each other this was the first time in human history that someone started

[00:42:10] to suggest otherwise and it wasn't let's turn the whole thing over and start a revolution that

[00:42:15] wasn't going to happen anyway would have just got most of them killed when it was was planting seeds

[00:42:20] it was planting these doubts and more than anything it was planting what it means to love other

[00:42:25] people the way that Jesus did so when Paul commands everyone to love everyone else and lay their

[00:42:31] lives down he's also speaking to slave owners and while not all of them got the message many of

[00:42:37] them did and it did slowly begin to bring about change so I think that's one possibility I think

[00:42:42] Paul was trying to undermine the system a little bit and create to plant the seeds that would eventually

[00:42:48] begin to have some of them see it now they didn't all see it and it took a long time that's horrible

[00:42:53] but I think Paul was there but here's the second thing okay and this one is a little tougher

[00:42:58] this one's a little tougher and it could be both of these it could be either but it could be both

[00:43:03] I also and I think this one is true for sure Paul appears to have felt and hang with me okay

[00:43:11] when you read Paul's letters it seems apparent that Paul believed that Jesus was coming back very soon

[00:43:22] you're like oh why does that matter well think about this you just look at his first letter to the

[00:43:25] church in Corinth he calls people to he says this chapter 7 verse 17 he says each person should live

[00:43:32] as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned them just as God called them this is the

[00:43:38] rule I don't so basically whatever situation you're in staying it well why would you say that

[00:43:42] and he goes on and you're just a slaves a few verses later in 21 were you a slave when you were called

[00:43:47] don't let it trouble you he's not saying slavery is good he's not saying slavery is a good thing

[00:43:51] you should just shut your mouth and he's saying don't let it trouble yeah it sucks but don't let it

[00:43:55] trouble you although if you can gain your freedom do so so Paul's like if you can get free get free

[00:44:00] but don't let it don't worry too much about it don't worry too much why would you say that Paul

[00:44:05] you know he goes on to say you know the one who was a slave when called the faith in the Lord is

[00:44:10] the Lord's freed person that's also undermining slavery the one who was free when called his Christ

[00:44:15] slave so even if you're not a slave you're still a slave to Christ you were bought a price do not

[00:44:19] become slaves of human beings so here's probably the clearest verse 23 of 1 Corinthians chapter 7

[00:44:24] it's probably the most direct statement you get from Paul do not become slaves of human beings

[00:44:28] so he actually does say like I don't want you to do this but remain the position you're called why would

[00:44:34] he say all this well then let's jump down to verse 29 what I mean brothers and sisters is that

[00:44:39] the time is short from now on those who have wives should live as if they do not what

[00:44:48] what like listen to what Paul is doing here okay Paul is giving instruction on Christians about how

[00:44:55] to appropriate with their lives believing that he is literally living in what you and I might

[00:45:00] think of as the end times Paul thought that Jesus was coming back soon it doesn't appear that Paul

[00:45:05] thought he was going to die and remember he had no way of knowing one or the other Jesus was like

[00:45:10] yeah I'm coming back go make disciples oh like next week next month like when you come back and this

[00:45:15] might be something I get into in a future episode the whole idea of Jesus returning for Paul though

[00:45:20] it seemed imminent so I think while Paul was planting seeds and starting to speak about what it

[00:45:26] means to love each other and treat each other right away I also think at the end of the day there's

[00:45:32] an ambivalence in Paul's mind because he thinks the whole thing is going to end pretty soon anyway

[00:45:37] he doesn't look at slavery as this massive thing he has to war against because for him just you know

[00:45:42] the important thing is that you love each other you treat each other well but this is all going to

[00:45:45] end soon anyway so don't worry about your position that appears to be his argument in Corinthians

[00:45:50] and I know it's hard to hear but remember first of all Paul wasn't divine and he himself was not inspired

[00:45:56] we believe that his writings were inspired what God led him to write down is what we believe is the

[00:46:01] word of God could Paul have been wrong about things of course Paul wasn't perfect he wasn't Jesus

[00:46:06] he probably thought Jesus was coming back and he was wrong just didn't come back he didn't see

[00:46:11] everything quite clearly it would be a much bigger issue if Paul had actually written God wills

[00:46:17] that there be slaves and masters or something like that but for Paul to be indifferent about the

[00:46:21] issue doesn't mean the Bible condones it it's likely that they simply failed to see it for the evil

[00:46:27] it was thought the world was about to end anyway and as most grew up simply accepting it as a social

[00:46:34] norm they just didn't question it and Paul undermined it he didn't promote it he undermined it he

[00:46:40] literally said don't become slaves treat each other certain way but at the same time it seems like

[00:46:46] number one he didn't want all of the problems that would come with being so anti-government

[00:46:52] and he also thought things were going to end soon that seems to be about where he landed

[00:46:57] okay now I know this is getting really long it's the longest podcast ever and it is but I want

[00:47:03] to end with an idea that I think is helpful here and this is not an idea that I would say is like

[00:47:10] in the Bible right it's not like in chapter four no this is an idea that theologians and scholars

[00:47:16] and thoughtful people have sort of come up with and it's an idea that we call redemptive movements

[00:47:23] redemptive movements and what we mean by redemptive movements is that there's a passage in the

[00:47:28] scripture where Jesus is talking about the kingdom of God and he says this he says the kingdom of God

[00:47:32] is like yeast a little bit worked into dough and as it's working it grows and grows and grows

[00:47:38] he also compares it to a small mustard seed a little tiny seed that planted ground actually grows

[00:47:43] into a bigger tree and what he appears to be saying is that the message of the kingdom

[00:47:50] is not a tidal wave that just completely consumes everything instantaneously the message of the kingdom

[00:47:59] of what it looks like to live as creatures of a new heaven a new earth look like what does it mean

[00:48:05] to actually be the kind of humans we're created to be actually comes to us as a small little seed

[00:48:10] that gets planted or a little bit of yeast that takes time to work itself in and so based on that idea

[00:48:18] we often will look at these kind of things like like slavery or even I'm in a whole podcast on

[00:48:23] women in ministry and I kind of mentioned this a little bit um although that's a little bit different

[00:48:27] because it's more wrestling with some of the passages I think divorce is probably a great one

[00:48:32] so I mentioned a few times it's a good example because we actually see what might be a redemptive

[00:48:37] movement related to marriage whereas you have the initial story of creation and what God intended

[00:48:42] for a man and a woman to be married together and live together then you have the fall and then

[00:48:47] you have all this brokenness and you know all just abuse and polygamy and you know horribly

[00:48:54] treating women and divorce all these things and then you have the law which sort of starts to kind

[00:48:59] of start to try to make it a little bit better but it's not like again it's not a tidal wave it

[00:49:04] just cleanses everything it's a seed that gets planted and slowly over time you see among the

[00:49:10] Jewish people the way that from the very beginning the earliest on it was wretched by the time you

[00:49:16] get to Jesus you actually have a much healthier view of marriage among the Jewish people and then

[00:49:21] Jesus just takes it up a step further which now exists among Christians there's a redemptive

[00:49:26] movement over time where the message of Jesus starting with the Torah and then moving into Jesus

[00:49:31] himself and the early church in Holy Spirit slowly begins to shift us in directions of greater

[00:49:37] and greater holiness and morality and oftentimes it's over a span of time you know sometimes

[00:49:46] enormous modification to the ancient Near East and Greco-Roman culture norms didn't start with

[00:49:55] just bam there it is they started very small and my podcast about women was important because

[00:50:00] women didn't immediately have better lives the year after Jesus sort of said his disciples out right it

[00:50:08] actually took a very long time for some of those changes to take place but they did change they did

[00:50:12] take place over time if you follow the redemptive movement of how women and people with less power

[00:50:20] slowly changed and grew and we got better and better it did get better and better because of the message

[00:50:26] inserting itself and growing um and you know again first laws about women were not what we would want

[00:50:32] them today they weren't quite like when you go back and look at the laws because they're women

[00:50:35] like that's still really gross and patriarchal and horrible but they were so much better and beyond

[00:50:41] what was going on at the time they were at the beginning of a redemptive movement by the new testament

[00:50:46] there's some of the most radically feminist ideas in the world that would eventually take hold

[00:50:51] and lead us to a redemptive movement so I think with slavery number one it was terrible it was wicked

[00:50:55] it was horrible but it's also the Bible is not pro-slavery it doesn't promote it it doesn't say it's a good

[00:51:01] thing I think what it ultimately does is more often than not unfortunately it kind of ignores

[00:51:07] it as part of the background but there is an element of the scriptures that begin to undermine

[00:51:13] that begin to sow the seeds that would eventually grow into what we understand and eventually

[00:51:18] became to recognize as evil and you know we look at creation a new creation the fall of Adam and Eve

[00:51:26] reveals this alienation from God or from one another leading to power machinations in Genesis 4 through

[00:51:33] 11 and all the wickedness and all the evil slavery is the result of that sin it is it comes it doesn't

[00:51:39] start in the garden Adam and Eve don't aren't created in God says okay go make slaves with their humans

[00:51:44] he says no no all humans are my image bears after the fall we start doing this to each other

[00:51:50] and so the movements of scripture the movement that we see in the Old Testament and then the new

[00:51:55] Testament in church history are towards ever closer towards what God is actually looking for in some

[00:52:02] ways in these areas and you might look at it and you might say okay Pete I hear that I get that

[00:52:08] but it still feels like the Bible should have just come out and said it and it bothers me that it didn't

[00:52:13] I don't have a good response to that because the truth is I do too I wish there was just some

[00:52:19] place in the Bible that Jesus is saying hey time out real quick I know I'm telling all these stories

[00:52:23] but can I just say this is evil and wicked he doesn't do that um the reality is though he doesn't

[00:52:28] do that about some other he isn't there's other things he doesn't know about I wish he had said more

[00:52:31] about the proper treatment of women I really do um there there are definitely other things that he

[00:52:38] it would have been nice if we had him say things about that he didn't and slavery is one of them

[00:52:42] and same with the New Testament if the New Testament just come right out and said this is evil this is

[00:52:46] wicked don't do this it would have caused a lot of problems but it might have eventually stopped a

[00:52:53] lot of problems right we want to be using scripture inappropriately to uphold it for years and years

[00:52:58] but it didn't we have the Bible that we have and what I would say is this okay and let me let me

[00:53:03] I'll end with this and it might not be the strongest thing that you can hold on to but I do think

[00:53:08] it's something if you and I didn't have the Bible if Christianity had never happened slavery would

[00:53:18] still exist all right let me say that again when people say oh the Bible is all pro slavery no

[00:53:26] the world is and was pro slavery Christians were the ones who eventually ended it okay so

[00:53:34] if you're sitting there and you're ultimately wrestling with but I just how can I how can I trust

[00:53:39] God and trust Jesus and read this Bible if it didn't outright condemn slavery I wish it did

[00:53:45] but I want you to hear this Christianity ended slavery the rest of the world was completely fine

[00:53:53] the people that weren't fine with it were Christians they were the ones who eventually ended it

[00:53:59] they didn't all get on board it was often a fight among Christians but eventually it was Christianity

[00:54:05] it was the teachings of Jesus and the words of the New Testament that eventually led us to this point

[00:54:12] and it's the same with women who said oh the Bible has negative things to say about women listen

[00:54:16] being a woman was a terrible experience in the ancient world for everybody the reason you and I today

[00:54:22] think that women should have certain rights to be treated a certain way is because of Christianity

[00:54:28] and the scriptures right that's why every culture that has been based on an influenced by the Christian

[00:54:35] scriptures has led to the things that you and I now believe are good and right in terms of the

[00:54:39] way that we treat people equality justice democracy and freedom these things came out of Christianity

[00:54:47] so before you pick up a big rock and just chuck it at the Bible and say I can't believe the Bible

[00:54:52] because it doesn't condemn slavery why don't you step back and say wait a minute why do I condemn

[00:54:57] slavery why do I think that slavery is wrong because I am in a culture I'm part of a culture

[00:55:04] that eventually allow the true teachings and understanding of Jesus and the Holy Spirit to settle

[00:55:08] in and change my views of it not because of Islam or Buddhism or Hinduism or atheism none of those

[00:55:17] things ever try to stop slavery it was Christianity that brought it to an end in the Western world

[00:55:23] and there are places in the world today that it still exists and people still accept it just like

[00:55:28] there are places today that still abuse women still accept it those places are not predominantly Christian

[00:55:35] so do I wish the Bible had more to say could the last 2000 years have been better if it had maybe

[00:55:40] I don't know I'm not God like I kind of wish that it did say something but what I can categorically

[00:55:46] say is true is that the only reason slavery ended was because of Christianity because we read these

[00:55:53] scriptures that told us to love each other that were all made in God's image that were supposed

[00:55:58] to treat each other as brothers and sisters and be unified that there is no slave or free or

[00:56:02] male or female we're all one in Christ those things eventually won out and changed the world

[00:56:09] and so yeah I have to I have to be careful with how I'm reading it it can be tricky at times but at the end

[00:56:15] of the day to question whether the Bible has validity because it doesn't outright condemn slavery

[00:56:22] is like well it is the Bible itself that makes you question its validity about slavery

[00:56:28] the reason you're opposed to slavery the reason that you're not still living like the ancient Greeks

[00:56:33] did were slave anybody never everybody have power the reason that power dynamics are a thing you

[00:56:38] think about is because the Bible calls us to think about power dynamics nobody in the ancient world

[00:56:43] thought that power and abusing those that were weaker than you were bad everybody thought that was

[00:56:47] a virtue if you had power use it if you could dominate people dominate people that was the way the

[00:56:53] whole world thought until Jesus showed up and laid his life down and said you guys do the same

[00:57:00] and that eventually like yeast in dough or a small seed playing the ground grew into something

[00:57:05] amazing and beautiful that has changed the world and continues to change the world every day

[00:57:12] all right that was a lot it was heavy I know I told you if you have more questions if you want to talk

[00:57:16] about this more reach out to me this is a short podcast covering an enormously big and difficult topic

[00:57:22] and I want I'd love to be there for you can find me reach me at p at riceturch.com you can find me on

[00:57:27] social media too and the Facebook or Instagrams all those things if you have any questions

[00:57:31] want to talk about or more information maybe you want to push back and get some more I'm available

[00:57:36] I know it's a difficult topic if this is something you want to share with somebody if you'll be

[00:57:40] helpful please encourage you to and however this can be a resource to you and those around you that's

[00:57:47] that's why I'm doing this that's what I'm about so thanks for joining me on this episode I've got

[00:57:52] one more and as I mentioned I'm looking at doing state miss it Jesus seemed to make about his return

[00:58:00] that were they wrong were they right and I mentioned it Paul thought he was coming back why didn't

[00:58:05] what happened there was Jesus wrong in predicting his own return when he would come back

[00:58:08] um if Jesus was wrong what does that say about all of Jesus and so that might be the last and fourth

[00:58:13] one I do on my next episode looking through this issue dissecting some of the problematic

[00:58:18] difficult stings of Jesus uh and then maybe when that's over I'm gonna do a super light one like

[00:58:23] why is cotton candy good all right that'll be a better episode uh that won't be all heavy and you know

[00:58:28] potentially get me fired uh okay uh guys thank you so much appreciate you and love to hear from

[00:58:33] you leave leave a comment leave a message reach out to me however you want and uh yeah thanks

[00:58:38] so much we'll see you in the next episode like stars podcast