Ep. 31: Journeys & Destinations [Do You Have to Go to Church to Be a Christian?]

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Like Stars Podcast. I'm your host,

[00:00:08] Pete Goodman. Today we are going to dive into a really big question that I feel like a lot of

[00:00:12] people have and it's this. Do you need or have to go to church to be a Christian? It's a kind

[00:00:20] of hot topic. Is church part of the deal? Can you can you be a Christian a follower of Jesus kind

[00:00:25] on your own and not part of the system, the corporation called church? Or is it no that's

[00:00:31] something you got to do. We're going to dive into that question today, break it down,

[00:00:35] try to find God's wisdom in it and hopefully come to I don't know some kind of understanding about

[00:00:39] where the role of a church, of attending church lands in our lives. So that's what we're going

[00:00:44] to be talking about today. Before we do that, a couple of things I want to throw past you.

[00:00:49] First, I just want to kind of keep throwing this in front of everybody. If you are actually

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[00:02:51] of the like stars podcast is drum roll please. My book is actually done. That's right. The book

[00:02:58] like stars called that for obvious reasons is done. It's available. It's finished.

[00:03:04] The like stars books, which I started this podcast actually, this whole thing of like

[00:03:08] talking to this Mike and sending it out to you really started over well over a year ago and

[00:03:12] 31 episodes now started as a way for me to kind of think through things I wanted to write about. And

[00:03:18] it took on a bit of a life of its own. I've long since left that and been covering all different

[00:03:22] kinds of topics, but the books been done. Some of the chapters and ideas, if you're a follower

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[00:04:00] of being able to find an Amazon again, shameless plug promotion here. But, you know, as my, like I

[00:04:05] said, I kind of started this podcast for this reason. So those of you that listen, that follow

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[00:04:25] I suppose the best way you can support me is the way that books are driven on Amazon,

[00:04:29] which is the primary place I can sell it, are often by people who buy it obviously,

[00:04:34] but also people that rate and review it. So books that have a high rating or review

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[00:04:43] I'd really appreciate it. If you read the book, if you buy it, if you check it out,

[00:04:47] or maybe you're like, you know, maybe I want to buy the book, but I listen to

[00:04:49] a piece of podcast and nobody talks about it. I like it. Jump on Amazon, go to the,

[00:04:53] go to the books page, the like stars page and just click on the review button

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[00:05:00] I'm going to be right a short sense or two, whatever. When you leave comments or feedback

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[00:05:19] podcast and those of you that have been on this journey with me, I'm so grateful. I really

[00:05:24] I really, I don't feel that I really am grateful that some of you actually take the time to watch

[00:05:28] or listen to this is kind of silly to me. And then many of you are going to read a book. I'm like,

[00:05:31] cool, great. But if you're interested in helping, that's the way to do it. Get the book and leave

[00:05:36] a review. Now, if you're somebody that says, look, Pete, I would love to be part of this,

[00:05:40] but I don't know. I can't afford it. It's Christmas. I tell you what,

[00:05:44] if you're someone that follows the podcast, I want to help you. I will give you a copy

[00:05:47] of my book. You can email me pete at rice.cchurch.com. I will actually email you

[00:05:51] a digital e copy of it for free. If you're a follower of the podcast, man, I'm not out here

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[00:06:01] for sale at my church, Rye City starting Sunday, December 17th for $10. So a bit discounted.

[00:06:07] And again, if you come by the church and you're like, I just don't have much right now,

[00:06:11] I'll give you one. Just stop by. I'd love to get your hands. But if I give you one,

[00:06:14] then you have to get, you have to go to Amazon and review it. Okay. One more thing

[00:06:19] before we dive in. I just do really want to say thank you. I really, it was a long journey. It's

[00:06:24] been a long process, but being able to dialogue with some of you and conversations we've had,

[00:06:31] maybe off camera or off mic, but the questions you've sent in different things we'll talk about,

[00:06:35] I'm just grateful and the fact that so many of you have been supporting and watching and

[00:06:39] downloading these videos and podcasts. It's just been really encouraging to me. I've

[00:06:43] really enjoyed it and I hope to keep doing it. So I hope you enjoy the book. I hope you've

[00:06:48] been enjoying the podcasts and thank you for your support. And again, seriously,

[00:06:52] I'd love to give you a free copy if you're a follower of the podcast. So let me know.

[00:06:55] Email me. Come find me at church. I'll hook you up. Okay. Let's dive in to this topic,

[00:07:02] this question I have in truth. No, nobody emailed me and said, Pete, this is more

[00:07:09] of a question that I'm just getting a lot. I'm just, it's almost, if I could just say,

[00:07:14] kind of a big board, like the zeitgeist of our culture right now. There has been in America at

[00:07:20] least and probably other Western countries, what many are calling almost like a mass exodus

[00:07:25] from the church. Church numbers are declining in many places that kind of almost like a record

[00:07:30] rate like really starting to drop. Many churches are closing, you know, a lot of pastors are

[00:07:35] in doing this as a profession anymore. You know, it feels kind of dire and then COVID just

[00:07:41] cranked it up to 11. Following COVID, church numbers have really plummeted. People who work in

[00:07:46] church like myself, I'm a pastor have seen some of that other. Some churches have been

[00:07:50] hard on others, but attendance has declined. And there's this idea that people are not going to

[00:07:57] church as much, which of course is reason for concern in our ever sort of deconstruction,

[00:08:02] de-churching world, people turning away from religion, people giving up on this part of their

[00:08:06] life, questioning it, having issues with it. And these are many of the reasons why I made this podcast.

[00:08:11] And I'll just say that like I mentioned before, why I wrote the book when you, those of you,

[00:08:14] some of you already read the book, you'll know at the heart of it is me feeling and having empathy

[00:08:21] for those who are really wrestling with the things they've been taught. Is this true? What's

[00:08:25] real here? What am I supposed to believe? What is this all about? And we're going to even get

[00:08:29] all more in this episode. And so that's where like stars came from. And it's what I like

[00:08:33] to do in this podcast is wrestle with tough issues that people are wrestling with that sometimes

[00:08:37] lead them away. But all that being said, I'm going to put that aside and I'm going to look at

[00:08:41] something interesting, which is there have been some recent studies on this whole church exodus,

[00:08:47] the people leaving churches and droves so to speak. And some of the results of recent

[00:08:53] data and studies is actually very surprising, especially to church leaders who are looking

[00:08:59] at the data. And what we are seeing by people who have said, I don't go to church anymore.

[00:09:05] I'm not really an attendant anymore. Many of the people who say that will also at the same time

[00:09:12] still say they are a Christian. In fact, while many millions of people are saying that they

[00:09:19] no longer attend church regularly, almost like 75% of those according to recent survey

[00:09:25] still call themselves Christian. They haven't left the faith. There's a lot of people who have left

[00:09:30] church, but haven't left Christianity that they're still holding on to Jesus. The idea, they believe

[00:09:36] the things like they hold us, but they're just not really all that interested in this like

[00:09:41] consistently attending this weekend worship service and sitting in a big room listening

[00:09:46] to someone like me talk for 40 minutes. Like that sort of is they're moving away from that.

[00:09:51] And you know, some of those people, some of those 75% will say, well, we still kind of watch

[00:09:55] online. We just kind of go home. So it's not going to church, but whatever. Maybe more sporadically,

[00:09:59] the average attender now is more like once a month where it used to be three times a month.

[00:10:04] Some, a lot of, a lot of the people in the survey just said life after COVID when

[00:10:07] I stayed at home, it was just easier to stay home and kind of chill and people

[00:10:11] like having their Sundays free. I understand that. And yes, some have legitimate issues.

[00:10:16] There are many people who again, the people that I make this podcast and wrote my book for

[00:10:20] who are struggling with issues in the church, maybe it's corruption or abuse or money and

[00:10:25] things like that. We've talked about that kind of stuff on this podcast,

[00:10:28] the whole episode on when our leaders fail us and let us down.

[00:10:33] Maybe people feel like church is too much of a show or it's kind of just a rat race,

[00:10:36] not whatever it is, lots of reasons. But really one of the biggest reasons people

[00:10:40] have that church is just they don't feel like they need it. They just feel like I can be a

[00:10:43] Christian without it. So you have these people, a lot of people, I'm not talking about millions

[00:10:48] of people who call themselves Christians, but don't actually attend or are involved in what

[00:10:54] we traditionally call a church, a local church body. But is that okay? Now obviously I'm a pastor.

[00:11:00] Okay. That means that when you subscribe to my YouTube channel or push the like button or whatever,

[00:11:05] I'm not making any money. I don't charge ads or anything. And yes, when you buy my book,

[00:11:10] I'll make like a little bit of money from Amazon, not nearly as much as I paid to make it.

[00:11:15] I'm not doing this for money, but I am a pastor for money. I'll just be, well, that sounded wrong.

[00:11:22] Be back then up. That is my career, it's my profession, right? My house payment is made

[00:11:29] by working for church. So when people stop going to church, when they say I don't need church

[00:11:32] anymore, there's a sort of visceral reaction inside of me personally about, oh, you gotta

[00:11:38] keep coming to church. I need a jab. But we're gonna put that aside. Okay. And I always try

[00:11:44] my best when I'm in these environments with you guys to try to see through your perspective

[00:11:50] and try to see things not personally or through my own emotions, but to say, let's really break

[00:11:54] this down. So I don't want to talk about it from my feelings or just my like, well,

[00:11:58] this is what I think, you know, whatever who cares what I think. I have too much invested

[00:12:03] interest to tell you should go to church to just talk like that. I want to talk more,

[00:12:07] I guess philosophically, theologically maybe. And just really though, can someone be a Christian

[00:12:15] and not go to church, not attend to be a part of this thing? I don't mean big church. I mean,

[00:12:23] like a local church body, like Ry City Church, Roy pastor, can you be a Christian and not be

[00:12:28] a part of that? And that's what I want to talk about and break down on this episode. So

[00:12:34] I'm going to do my best. And I'll be honest, I'm not going to approach this from,

[00:12:39] dare I say a hyper biblical perspective. I'm not going to throw a bunch of scripture versus at you.

[00:12:44] And I'm not going to take it from a here's why as a pastor, I'm just going to try to talk it

[00:12:48] through and find some wisdom in it. Okay. And then you can make up your own mind and what

[00:12:52] you think I have some opinions, but I'll let you decide. So let's do that together.

[00:12:56] And the way that I want to do this is I actually want to introduce a bigger question,

[00:13:00] a bigger question that I call it almost like a rubric or a standard by which we can ask this

[00:13:07] question and others. So here's what I want to do. I want to talk about journeys and destinations,

[00:13:13] journeys and destinations. Anytime you take a trip, maybe you pile the kids in the car and

[00:13:18] you're headed off to Disneyland or something, any vacation or whatever that you take involves

[00:13:23] two parts. Okay. There's two parts to a trip. There is the destination where you are actually

[00:13:30] going, right? I'm going to Disneyland. That's, that's where I'm headed here.

[00:13:34] But along with the destination, every trip also has a journey, a pathway, the roads or avenues

[00:13:41] you travel in order to get to your destination. So there's the journey, the getting there,

[00:13:47] and the destination where you're going and Christianity is similar and very similar.

[00:13:52] It's a big part of Christianity. There is on the one hand, a destination. There is a point what

[00:13:58] this whole Christian thing is about. What, what is, what does it mean to be a Christian? What is

[00:14:02] the point? What are you aiming at here? What is it ultimately for or about? But then there's

[00:14:08] the journey. How do you get there? What steps do I have to take to get to the place that

[00:14:13] I'm going? What things do I need to do? What should I do in order to get there? What roads

[00:14:19] will lead me there? What pathways should I take? There is the journey and there is the destination.

[00:14:24] And it's pretty safe to say, and again, I wrote an entire book about this really,

[00:14:29] that those two ideas are often confused and kind of misunderstood things that are part of the

[00:14:34] journey, the pathways, the roads, the highways, the cars, whatever, the things that get us

[00:14:40] somewhere sometimes have a way of being mistaken for the destination itself. We can look at a

[00:14:46] thing that's meant to get me somewhere and suddenly focus just on that. Instead of focusing on

[00:14:51] Disneyland, I'm focusing on the highway that gets me there. So in both are important, both matter,

[00:14:57] both have to be discussed and looked at, but they need to be kept separate and you need

[00:15:01] to understand the differences between them. So here's a case in point. When you ask a question

[00:15:06] like, do I have to blank, fill in the blank? Do I have to blank to be a Christian? And

[00:15:13] there's a lot of things you can throw in there. We're going to talk about go to church. Do I

[00:15:16] have to read baptized? Do I have to read my Bible? Do I have to go to, you know, whatever,

[00:15:20] what it fill in the blank? Or do I, can I not or do I have to not do blank? You know,

[00:15:27] do I have to not sleep with this person or whatever? And we have to make sure we aren't

[00:15:31] confusing these moments when we're asking those questions that we're not confusing the journey,

[00:15:35] the getting there, the different paths or steps that are necessary to get me somewhere

[00:15:41] with the destination where I'm actually trying to get. Those are two different things and we

[00:15:46] have to keep them separate. We have to look at both of them, keep them separate. So if I ask,

[00:15:51] do I have to do X, Y, Z in order to be a Christian? That requires me to first ask another question.

[00:15:58] Is X, Y or Z? The thing in question, is it part of the destination? Is it part of Disneyland?

[00:16:07] Is it inherently part of what it means to be a Christian? The end goal of what this is all about

[00:16:12] or rather, is it part of the journey? Is it one of the things that's going to get me there?

[00:16:17] Is it something that plays a part in the pathways or the roads of becoming, of the journey?

[00:16:23] And if that's the case, if it's part of the journey and not the destination,

[00:16:27] well then we should be looking at it differently. Is it a necessary part of the journey? Is it

[00:16:31] the only path that will get me there? Do I have to take that road? What happens if I take a

[00:16:36] different road? And I think these questions need to be asked of each specific situation.

[00:16:41] You could take any quick fill in the blank, do I have to or am I allowed to blank and still be a

[00:16:47] Christian? Is it journey or destination? Start there. That's where you start. Now before you

[00:16:53] have to do that, and we're going to keep it unpacking, right? It's got a lot of doing this

[00:16:55] podcast. You can't even answer that question unless you ask an even deeper question, which is,

[00:17:03] what is the destination? Right? How can I know if it's journey or destination if I don't know

[00:17:08] what the destination is? What is the end goal of being a Christian? Now, I'm going to do this

[00:17:13] briefly. But if you ever thought or wrestled that question, there is a great book that was

[00:17:18] just released called Like Stars that dives headlong into that question. Shameless plug, whatever.

[00:17:25] This whole podcast is a shameless plug. Come on. But we can't talk about how to get somewhere,

[00:17:33] if we're not first making sure we know where we are going. So what does it even mean to be a

[00:17:37] Christian? What, where is this journey called Christian living, even leading us? What does it

[00:17:43] mean to be, what is the goal? What's the destination? And I would say this and I'm going

[00:17:48] to do a short treatment on this because it's not the main point of this podcast. But at its

[00:17:52] core, I believe very firmly that the key word in all of this in that question is that little

[00:17:59] word be, be a Christian. I said it before again, my book like stars goes into depth. We have to

[00:18:07] start by understanding and accepting that the end goal, the purpose, the destination of this whole

[00:18:13] Christian thing is not going somewhere literally. It's not physically getting somewhere. It's not

[00:18:20] about arriving somewhere. The purpose of Christianity is not getting you to heaven,

[00:18:25] whereby the journey there is simply getting your ticket to go through the turnstile.

[00:18:29] That is not what this whole thing is about. That's actually missing a much bigger perspective.

[00:18:35] Okay. Now I think that heaven, eternity, punishment, all those kind of things, they're

[00:18:40] part of it, but I think they're actually more part of the journey of what is ultimately the

[00:18:45] destination. And the ultimate destination is that we're not going somewhere. We are being

[00:18:52] someone. You are not created to get somewhere else. You were created to be someone. The arrival

[00:19:00] that I've gotten here of the Christian life is not floating on a cloud up in heaven. It's the return

[00:19:06] of human beings to what they were originally created to be both in how we live and how we

[00:19:13] behave and how we treat one another, how we manage and steward God's world. We've talked about

[00:19:18] a lot of things in the podcast and in our relationship with God personally, to be in

[00:19:22] connection with Him, to know Him, to live with Him. There's something existential,

[00:19:26] something about my life, about my existence at the center of Christianity. God made me to be

[00:19:31] something. And the story tells me that because of human decisions, I am not that. I have lost

[00:19:37] the part of my humanity that God intended it. But now through Jesus in the power of His spirit,

[00:19:44] He has come to restore, to heal, to redeem, remake all the things and bring us back to what we're made

[00:19:50] to be. I did a whole episode on the image of God. You can check that out. I really dive in that a

[00:19:54] lot. So at its most basic, we would say that the end goal, the destination, the place that

[00:19:59] we're headed towards, what this is all moving towards is for a human being to become the

[00:20:07] kind of humans God intended us to be. That's where we're going. We're on a journey to

[00:20:13] become different kinds of people who live and think differently, more in line with how God created

[00:20:20] us to. We are being transformed. Paul uses the word metamorpho, like the metamorphosis of a

[00:20:25] butterfly. We're changing into something else. That's what this is all about, remaking us

[00:20:30] into what we were created to be. And that is our journey. Now I think it's important to

[00:20:37] point out that arrival at that point, and people will, maybe this is another podcast,

[00:20:42] arrival at that perfect point is probably not possible on either this side of our own death

[00:20:48] or the second coming of Jesus. Again, other conversations, but I'm not talking about actually

[00:20:52] getting there. I'm just talking about where we're going. The place that we're headed,

[00:20:56] we're trying to, what we are trying to accomplish with this whole Christian movement

[00:21:01] is us headed towards that goal of becoming what we were created to be seen now in the

[00:21:06] perfect face of Jesus. Becoming like him is our purpose. So that is the destination. The

[00:21:13] destination of Christianity is God reforming and remaking you into what you were always created

[00:21:18] to be, to live the way and the kind of life that God intended you for. So that was a quick one.

[00:21:24] Again, dive back in more on my book. Let's come back to our question. Do I have to be X, Y, Z?

[00:21:30] Do I have to do this or that, fill the blank in order to be a Christian? So it's about

[00:21:35] being a Christian. So do I have to do this in order to be that kind of human that God intended

[00:21:42] and created me to be? That's our core question, right? Well, I think you now have the first

[00:21:48] factor in making this decision and thinking this through whereby you can ask yourself,

[00:21:53] is blank X, Y, Z, whatever you're talking about, is it part of what it means to be

[00:21:59] the full human being God intended you to be? Is the thing you're talking about inherent

[00:22:04] to life as God intended it? One way I like to say this, and I got this from the scholar NT Wright,

[00:22:10] talking about this. Asking this question is what you're talking about part of life that existed

[00:22:16] before sin and will exist after sin? Did it exist before we were fallen and broken and humans

[00:22:21] were already what they're supposed to be? And once Jesus returns and establishes his final

[00:22:25] kingdom and restores all things, will the thing you're talking about still be at play?

[00:22:30] Well, it's still be part of your life. If not, it was part of the journey. If so,

[00:22:35] it was part of life as God intended. Are you with me? So if the thing you're talking about

[00:22:40] is inherent to my existence as God intended, it's part of the destination. If it's part

[00:22:46] of the destination, then absolutely it's a necessary part of being a Christian. For example,

[00:22:51] do I have to love my neighbor, forgive others, be generous, show mercy and kindness in order

[00:22:57] to be a Christian? Absolutely. Yes, you do. Some of you are like, wait a second, where is this going?

[00:23:04] Yes, you do. That's part of the human nature that you've lost through sin and that God is working

[00:23:10] to restore in you as you follow Jesus through the power of his spirit. That's why I think the

[00:23:14] clearest description of being a Christian, the goal, the target, Paul talks about, you'll know

[00:23:20] if you're reaching the target, if you are, imagine yourself like a fruit tree and the

[00:23:26] fruit that's being grown off of you looks like it's supposed to. If you're an apple tree,

[00:23:30] is the apple actually a good fruit? You're a healthy tree. You're becoming a better tree.

[00:23:34] And he said the kind of fruit we should see in our lives before a healthy tree

[00:23:38] in Galatians 5, 22 and 23 is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness,

[00:23:43] faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. This is the fruit of the spirit. He's not

[00:23:47] describing like a list of good ideas that might be, now that you're following Jesus,

[00:23:54] you should maybe try to include some of this in your life. I don't know. He's saying these are

[00:23:59] descriptions, these are adjectives that are describing the kind of life God is wanting to

[00:24:04] bring about in you through Jesus and his spirit. Those are targets. Those are destinations.

[00:24:10] Those are what we're aiming at. The goal of Christianity is making you more someone that

[00:24:15] lives love, joy, peace and all these kinds of things. It's him saying this is the kind

[00:24:20] of life you were made for that you've fallen far from. We all have, but are now being restored

[00:24:25] as you follow Jesus and live by his spirit. This is the fruit of the spirit in your life.

[00:24:31] Those things are part of the destination where we are going in our journey with Jesus.

[00:24:36] So yes, they are required. Do I have to be love? Do I have to love people in order

[00:24:41] to be a Christian? Yes, you do. To be a Christian means those that's kind of behavior

[00:24:46] that's evident in your life. No, no, no, no. Some of you are like, oh, listen, side note,

[00:24:51] time out, I guess. I am not saying, and even though it might sound like it, be clear, I'm not saying

[00:24:58] if you aren't those things all the time and you aren't fully perfected in those things,

[00:25:03] then you are not a Christian. Like you're not a Christian if you don't explain all

[00:25:06] these things all the time. That's not what I'm saying. Of course, there's still room

[00:25:09] on this side of heaven and this side of, you know, the final culmination of all things.

[00:25:14] There's room in God's current economy for mercy and grace when we fall short. We know

[00:25:19] we'll fall short. The Bible says you're going to fall short. You're not always going to achieve

[00:25:22] these things. So don't hear me this as saying you're not a Christian if you ever lack joy or peace

[00:25:27] and lose your temper. If that were the case, I would absolutely not be a Christian during

[00:25:32] the Christmas season when my kids drive me nuts. I'm saying though that those are the

[00:25:38] target. Those are what I'm aiming at. Those are what it means to be fully Christian

[00:25:43] because to be fully Christians, to be fully like Christ and those things define Christ.

[00:25:47] Those are what I'm aiming at. They are the goal. So when I am not loving, let's hear me out. When

[00:25:54] I am not loving, when I am not pursuing peace, gentleness, when I'm not forgiving, it's not

[00:26:00] that I have fallen out of faith and I'm no longer in the family of God, but I am not

[00:26:05] behaving or acting in line with what it means to be a Christian. I can't let go of those

[00:26:10] things and say, I'm still Christian. I don't need to love people to be a Christian. No, no, no.

[00:26:15] Striving to love people is part of what it means to be a Christian. That's part of

[00:26:18] the destination. Okay? You with me? Not perfection yet. One day we believe that,

[00:26:25] but an aiming towards it, an inclusion to me to define someone as Christian means they're

[00:26:31] aiming at those things in their life. They believe they're important and necessary and

[00:26:34] things to strive for. Okay, on the other hand, there are all kinds of things that Christians do

[00:26:42] and don't do, which we need to ask, do they actually rise to the level of destination?

[00:26:47] Read your Bible, tithe money to church, listen to K-Love, watch Fox News,

[00:26:51] don't watch certain movies or sleep with anyone you're not married to,

[00:26:54] don't drink, don't smoke, chew or hang out with people that do. In this instance,

[00:26:59] go to church, attend a weekly worship service at a local church. In many of these areas,

[00:27:05] when seen through the lens of before and after sin or the fall or new heaven and earth,

[00:27:11] they may be good and important. They may play a serious and legitimate role in our lives as

[00:27:16] Christians, but not as in the destination, but as part of the journey, as part of getting

[00:27:25] where we want to go. Being a person who loves my neighbor is the destination. How do I become a

[00:27:30] person who loves my neighbor? How do I practice loving my neighbor? Right? Being a person of

[00:27:35] self-control is ultimate destination. How do I practice self-control? What brings that about

[00:27:39] in my life? There are things, there are roadways, there are pathways that lead us to become

[00:27:46] what God wants. There's the becoming, but how do I get there? Notice the difference.

[00:27:51] Let me give you an example. It'd be like asking, is taking medicine part of being a healthy human?

[00:27:58] Think about that for a second. Is taking medicine part of being a healthy human? Well,

[00:28:03] it depends, doesn't it? It's not actually an inherent part of a healthy life. Like there's

[00:28:09] nothing inherently human about taking medicine. It's not the ultimate goal to be a person

[00:28:15] constantly taking medicine, but if you're sick, it's a journey that medicine is the pathway towards

[00:28:23] the healthy life you were made for. And in many ways as Christians living this life, we sometimes

[00:28:30] can confuse what we're aiming at, which is a healthy life in the image of God with the pathway,

[00:28:35] which is often medicine or remedies to get us where we want to go, practices to get us

[00:28:41] healthy. And the thing about the journey, these things that make up the journey for us,

[00:28:46] some of them are vital and so hugely important. You need something in your life. For example,

[00:28:53] if you want to take a journey from America to Europe, you are going to need something to get

[00:28:57] you across the ocean, right? You're not getting there without a boat or a plane. You'll never be

[00:29:02] cured of a serious disease without some kind of treatment. Diseases don't just go away a lot

[00:29:06] of times. Maybe your body is fighting it off and you can whatever, but right? Like we need something,

[00:29:12] but other things can be taken to extremes. And sometimes we can make the mistake of thinking

[00:29:16] there's only one way about it. You can only get to Europe through a boat. You can take a plane,

[00:29:21] all right? There's other ways to do it. You can only get healthy with this very specific

[00:29:25] medicine, right? Only essential oils. Well, I'm going to go with that. But it's denying

[00:29:30] other forms of treatment. There's other ways you might really get healthy. And not everyone

[00:29:34] is as sick as someone else. Not over, some people are like, oh, I could use a little bit

[00:29:37] help here. Other people are near death, right? So how important is this medicine to this person?

[00:29:42] Might be not as important as this person again, because you're not talking about the destination

[00:29:45] that defines all of us. Love your neighbor. You're talking about all of us being on a

[00:29:49] journey to get to that point. And therefore different things might help us get there.

[00:29:54] And we might need different things at different times and differences in my life.

[00:29:58] What the problem though, is if we confuse the journey things with the destination things,

[00:30:03] then we make rules of that everybody has to follow. And if you don't do it this way, it's like,

[00:30:08] well, it's not, I don't think that's the way to go about it. Not everyone is as sick as

[00:30:12] everyone else. Not everyone is traveling the same way with the same amount of people and the

[00:30:16] same amount of time. So it's to be careful when talking about the roadways on the journey.

[00:30:21] Number one, we have to be careful that we're not confusing them with the destination.

[00:30:26] Like don't make a journey piece part of what it means to be a Christian there.

[00:30:30] And we're going to give this a little bit in a minute here. Will we be talking about what movies

[00:30:34] you shouldn't or should watch in the new heaven and new earth? Or is that something we've talked

[00:30:38] about now in this broken season where we're trying to become something else? So that's

[00:30:42] the first thing, we can't confuse the ways that we get there with where we're going.

[00:30:48] The other thing is we all once we start talking about where how we're getting there,

[00:30:52] is it a necessary part of the journey? Or is it just a helpful part of the journey?

[00:30:57] Is it a you cannot get there if you don't do this? Or is it a hey, this will really help you

[00:31:02] get there and you should consider it. And if it's just a helpful part, how helpful like really

[00:31:06] helpful and take it or leave it, right? And you might be listening to your thinking, man,

[00:31:11] Pete's being kind of up in the air about things. Well, listen, painting things with

[00:31:15] broad black and white strokes is dangerous. Everybody has to read their Bible this way

[00:31:21] every morning at 6am for an hour. If they want to be a Christian, well, hold on back

[00:31:24] off, right? Like everybody has to attend this kind of church. Which is like that might be part

[00:31:29] of a healthy journey, at least for you or different. There can be nuance here. First,

[00:31:35] we all agree on the destination. We all are called to be loving people who forgive and all these

[00:31:40] kinds of things that show the characteristics of the spirit in Jesus and our lives. We're all

[00:31:45] headed there. But the way that we get there doesn't always have to be exactly the same.

[00:31:50] And we need to be careful that we're not sometimes over prioritizing things.

[00:31:54] So those are two questions. Is it the journey of the destination? And if it's the journey,

[00:32:00] is it a necessary part of the journey or take it or leave it one?

[00:32:04] So you could fill in the blanks and then we want to do I have to be baptized? Well,

[00:32:09] is that part of the journey or the destination? Do I have to read my Bible? Is that part of

[00:32:13] the journey of the destination? Right? And if it's part of the journey, how important is it?

[00:32:18] So all that just for our last few minutes, I know this whole podcast was asking this one question.

[00:32:23] I'm just now getting into it. But really, once you get to it, we've sort of,

[00:32:26] we've given the criteria. Now we just break it down. Do you have to go and attend a church

[00:32:31] in order to be a Christian? Do you have to be part and a regular tender of a local church body

[00:32:37] to be a Christian? Well, let's ask the first question first. Is going to church

[00:32:44] part of what it means to live as the kind of human being God created and tends you to be?

[00:32:50] Is it innately and inherently part of that life or is it part of the journey that gets us there?

[00:32:56] That's kind of the first question. And here's the truth. That's not an easy question.

[00:33:00] Like you might have heard them like, oh, Pete's just going to answer it. Well, actually,

[00:33:03] I can't just throw an easy answer at you because it's actually very nuanced. And here's why.

[00:33:08] Because even if you say, why do you go to church? Why should someone go to church?

[00:33:12] I don't have one answer for you. I have a bunch of them. And so instead of just broad strokes,

[00:33:17] let's look at a bunch of them first. Part of going to church, I think, is worshiping God,

[00:33:23] turning our minds and our focus and celebrating him and honoring him vocally and verbally with

[00:33:27] other Christians. We will spend an eternity doing that the Bible says. So if the Bible

[00:33:32] says we'll spend an eternity worshiping God, then worshiping God is innate

[00:33:36] and part of my humanity and thus part of being a Christian. Can you be a Christian

[00:33:40] and not worship God? No. Right. Can you have seasons where you're struggling? Sure. But innate

[00:33:45] and part of what it means to be Christian is to turn your heart and life towards God and worship

[00:33:49] him. So coming together at church and worshiping is part of our creative order. Now, you have to

[00:33:57] come to a building and hang out with a bunch of strangers and listen to a rock band do it a

[00:34:04] certain way. Well, you could worship God by yourself in your home, your car, right? I don't think

[00:34:09] during K-Love on, I don't know, just you don't need music. You'd be out on the mountain.

[00:34:13] So in some ways I would say, do you have to come to church to worship? No, I don't think you do.

[00:34:19] So is that worship as part of your creative order but attending church to worship? Maybe not.

[00:34:26] Then there's community, part of being a part of churches being in community.

[00:34:30] I would say that the scriptures, I don't use the word clear because that's dangerous, but from my

[00:34:35] interpretation of the scriptures, I don't believe that you can be an isolated Christian. I think

[00:34:39] Christianity is a team sport that is about people coming together. My pastor, Ronald

[00:34:44] Abrant, always says, you can't practice the one another as Jesus without one another.

[00:34:49] We're told not to give up meeting together in the scriptures. Well, that means that being

[00:34:53] in community, not being isolated, meeting with other people, having accountability and all

[00:34:57] these things are part of the nature of my existence. Before sin, it was not good for man to be alone.

[00:35:04] And in the new heavens and earth, we're going to be a community of people together. So being in

[00:35:08] relationship with other people and doing life together is absolutely part of Christianity.

[00:35:13] It's part of the life God intends you for. But can you be in Christian community without

[00:35:19] attending a church every Sunday? I mean, I think I'd be lying if I said no. I,

[00:35:27] you know, I think you can be in Christian community apart from a weekly attendance at a church.

[00:35:32] I might ask you if you are part of a small collection of people that meet together regularly,

[00:35:37] are you not just a smaller church? That's a separate question. But, you know, I think

[00:35:41] you can be in community part of your nature, your existence without it. And then you have

[00:35:46] things like generosity and or serving or giving of your time, your money, these kind of things.

[00:35:50] Again, no question in my mind, no question in my mind that that's part of being a Christian.

[00:35:55] I mean, Jesus, we are told to have the mind of Christ who took on the nature of a servant.

[00:36:01] To be generous and to give is the nature of God's economy. So to be involved,

[00:36:07] to give your time, to help others, to share your money and your gifts, all these kind of things

[00:36:12] I think are absolutely part of the destination. That is part of what it means to be a Christian.

[00:36:16] Can you be a Christian and not practice generosity and serving? No, that's part of the destination.

[00:36:22] That's part of what it means to be part of this new community of people.

[00:36:26] But can you love and serve the world around you apart from attending a service every week?

[00:36:30] Do you have to serve in the church? Do you have to be a door greeter and give your

[00:36:34] money to the church? Can you give money to Compassion International or YWAM to build

[00:36:39] homes? There's other things you can give money to and there's plenty of ways you can serve. You can

[00:36:43] go serve local soup kitchen without doing it through a church. So while generosity and serving

[00:36:48] are part of the destination, I don't know that doing it through church is necessarily,

[00:36:54] might be just part of the journey. Well, what about the word, the teaching? I'm a Bible teacher,

[00:36:59] so a lot of times I'll get up on Sunday morning and teach the word to people.

[00:37:03] I think in some ways I do it on this podcast. Is that part of your inherent

[00:37:07] Christian nature? Can I be a Christian without that? Well, this is a confusing one and you're not,

[00:37:13] my entrance might freak you out. I think that, no, I don't think that learning and hearing the word

[00:37:20] of God is inherent to being a Christian. Let me explain before you freak out. Did you need

[00:37:28] the word of God as a human being before sin? Did you need someone teaching you, and let

[00:37:33] me clarify, I want to back up a bit. I don't want to use the phrase word of God. I want

[00:37:36] to say the Bible. The word of God, I think is even in Genesis one, God said, let me give you my word,

[00:37:41] the knowledge of good and evil. So I would say, let's talk about the Bible. Do you need someone

[00:37:44] to teach you the Bible? Did Adam and Eve need someone to teach them the Bible? Or did they

[00:37:48] have a relationship with God that they were without sin nature? And in the new heaven and

[00:37:52] new earth will we need that? I would argue that learning and following the scriptures is part

[00:37:57] of the medicine, it's part of the journey. It is important. I think it is absolutely

[00:38:02] important. It's part of the journey. I don't think you can get there without it. I think

[00:38:05] this is one of those things that says, I don't think it's part of what it means to be a Christian,

[00:38:08] but I don't think you'll ever arrive or be trying to be without the word of God, the scriptures in

[00:38:12] your life. But they're the journey, not the destination. Secondly, I guess maybe more to the point,

[00:38:19] and you can absolutely hear people teach you the word of God without going to church because

[00:38:22] in some ways you're doing it right now. You're watching a podcast. You're driving

[00:38:27] in your car or whatever, like you're walking your dog. Like so obviously the word of God

[00:38:32] can be taught outside of a local church body. Okay. And then maybe fulfilling the great commission,

[00:38:38] right? Making disciples of all nations. Again, not the destination and that'd be silly to

[00:38:42] say the destination, but part of the journey we've been commanded during the season of the

[00:38:47] world to do that. So yeah, but yeah, you can kind of do it on your own. You don't need to

[00:38:51] attend a church every Sunday to do that. So where does this all leave us? We'll kind of end

[00:38:56] it. We'll end the plane here. Some of you are like, okay, so Pete just did a podcast to

[00:39:01] tell me I don't have to go to church. Well, here's what I'd say. I would say that we've

[00:39:05] identified some really key and important aspects about the destination of being a Christian,

[00:39:11] that being a part of an attending church helps us practice and bring about. There are parts

[00:39:18] about the church that carry us on the journey. But yes, if we're being completely reasonable,

[00:39:25] we can also see that each of those things don't necessarily require church attendance in

[00:39:32] order to be a Christian. You really can do a lot of those things apart from this kind of weekly,

[00:39:37] weekend gathering you might think of a Sunday morning type of thing. So here's the deal.

[00:39:43] After 39, 40 minutes, the short answer is no, I don't think you have to go to church to

[00:39:49] be a Christian, but hold on. I still have a couple of minutes left. I'm not done yet. You see,

[00:39:56] I think that you can and for those of you listeners, I just did that word in quotes,

[00:40:01] you can do all those things yourself on your own apart from a good solid church family

[00:40:06] community. It's possible. It's also possible to self diagnose your sicknesses on WebMD and to

[00:40:15] cross the border and go to Tijuana to purchase your medication on the black market

[00:40:19] hoping it's the right one and works. And it very well might be WebMD is actually pretty powerful,

[00:40:26] but you know what? It's a whole lot easier and wiser I think in the long run to just follow

[00:40:30] the tried and true method of seeing a doctor. So when people say to me like, well, I don't need

[00:40:34] a doctor, I can, there's, I have resources on my own. I'm like, yeah, I guess I okay. Yeah,

[00:40:40] you do. Why bother though? The doctors, you have insurance. That person went to medical school.

[00:40:48] Go. What are you talking about? And I think for a lot of people, and I'm not preaching,

[00:40:55] I'm not teaching the Bible right now. I'm just talking. This is Pete talking.

[00:40:58] I think a lot of times we have found reasons. We've given ourselves reasons to question,

[00:41:05] to doubt, to be upset with the medical industry. And so we're going to do it on our own.

[00:41:11] I'll just go to WebMD or whatever. I'll get some essential oils, rub them on my feet, then

[00:41:16] my, you know, whatever cancer will go away. Yeah, it probably won't guys.

[00:41:22] There are reasons for us to question and to have issues with the medical community.

[00:41:29] And yes, the medical community is currently a metaphor for the church. Yes, there are reasons

[00:41:34] for us to question and doubt and have issues with the church. There are a lot of things that

[00:41:40] the local church doesn't always do well. Sometimes they are too interested in your money,

[00:41:47] power dynamics. Sometimes there is abuse. Sometimes it has become too much of just a show.

[00:41:52] And you're like, is this a movie theater or a place to worship Jesus? Yes, that's

[00:41:56] legitimate. Those are things we have to talk about. And as a community, as a family of

[00:42:01] people, we need to work through them together. But to run away from it and just be like,

[00:42:05] church is stupid. I can do this on my own. Yeah, I guess you can. But is that actually wise?

[00:42:10] Because if you're serious about this, if you're serious about really wanting to become the person

[00:42:15] God has created you to be, if you really want to get there, right? To arrive at the destination,

[00:42:23] what the most logical thing to do be to follow the pathway that has been most commonly walked

[00:42:30] by others for the last 2000 years and led to the most success of people actually finding it.

[00:42:37] Are there a bunch of small little side roads I could take from San Diego to Anaheim,

[00:42:41] get Disneyland on my own without any kind of map quest or I don't need to take the main freeway

[00:42:45] to get there? Yeah, I probably could. But why the freeway gets me there? And sometimes the

[00:42:51] traffic is rough and sometimes there's construction and sometimes there's tolls and

[00:42:54] it's frustrating. But it's a tried and true method that I know will get me there.

[00:43:00] So yes, the modern church has its problems and there are areas it needs to reform.

[00:43:05] There are times I go to church and I am bored. So you just heard a pastor tell you that. So now

[00:43:13] you have permission to be okay feeling I'm sometimes I'm kind of bored. Sometimes people

[00:43:18] like me talk and I'm like, I don't even talk about a board. Music is too loud or whatever.

[00:43:23] I'm with you. I'm human, right? And I know sometimes I raise an eyebrow myself at church

[00:43:28] like, man, what are they going to do with my money? Why are you guys doing that? And I work for

[00:43:31] a church. But I didn't always, I honestly were coming from there have been times that I've

[00:43:36] during COVID when I stayed home every Sunday, I'm like, this is kind of nice. My kids are in

[00:43:40] sports and I don't have to worry. I get it. I get it. But what I also get is that,

[00:43:46] and I'll leave you with this. Okay? I'm not painting a massive one size fits all kind of

[00:43:53] broad stroke here. I'm just speaking generally, kind of whatever. When people say, I don't need

[00:43:59] this, I can do it myself. I don't argue with them philosophically like you cannot absolutely,

[00:44:06] you might know, but the reality is more often than not, you don't do you. No, you don't. You can say

[00:44:15] you will, I can have community on my own and I can worship God in my car. But then you stop

[00:44:20] attending, you stop, you get off this highway, you've tried to make your own pathways and suddenly

[00:44:26] you priorities change. You're like out of sight, out of mind and suddenly you're not really

[00:44:32] thinking about it anymore and other things come up. The next thing you know, you look at

[00:44:35] your own spirit and you're like, why do I feel so cold and distant from God? I'm still a Christian.

[00:44:39] I still, I still believe all the Christian things, but I don't really feel any connection to him.

[00:44:44] Why is that? I'm not saying that going to church one time, boom, you love with Jesus.

[00:44:50] A lot of times I go to church and I just want to go home. But I am saying on this journey

[00:44:55] of getting to become someone I want to be, I believe that making a commitment,

[00:45:01] like joining a gym and just going of saying there's going to be Sundays or whatever that

[00:45:07] it's not great. The music is too loud. There's going to be times my pastor makes dumb decisions.

[00:45:10] There's going to be times the speaker is boring. There's going to be times the traffic's bad,

[00:45:14] the parking lots are messed, whatever, whatever. There's going to be times I have to miss things

[00:45:16] or don't want to go out of bed. Yes. But the reality is when I choose to make this a part

[00:45:23] of my life, not because it's the only way and I could never know God without it. No,

[00:45:28] when I'm just believing that this is a good thing for me, I build a habit of being involved

[00:45:35] and I join a group of people who are all journeying together, who are choosing to worship every week,

[00:45:41] who are choosing to listen to the word of God, who are choosing to come together and give and

[00:45:45] to serve. I joined a group of people who are choosing to be in a relationship and

[00:45:50] community together to fulfill the great commission and reach our community. By joining a local

[00:45:55] church and being a part of it, I am putting myself on a broad, wide, well-traveled path

[00:46:01] that for 2,000 years has often led to the place I want to go. So do you have to go to church? No.

[00:46:09] Is it wise though if you want to fully become the person God's crazed you to be

[00:46:13] and experience life he has for you to join others on a journey that are all walking

[00:46:18] it together? Absolutely. I would tell anyone who seriously believes that God's life is the

[00:46:25] life they want to get involved in a local church, not because you have to, not because

[00:46:30] you're not a Christian if you don't, but because it's a method, it's a pathway that brings it

[00:46:34] about. It works and it's good for you. There's times it's bad, but even, you know what,

[00:46:40] the times that it's bad, the times that church is kind of boring is still good for you, right?

[00:46:44] The times that you don't like the music and the preacher is boring and dragging on,

[00:46:48] like I kind of am right now, it's still good for you because it's actually bringing about

[00:46:51] something else in your life, which is a dying to self, a willingness to say this isn't about me.

[00:46:56] Like giving up because it's boring is saying it's about you. You're already missing part of

[00:47:01] what it means to be a Christian, which is to live for something bigger than yourself.

[00:47:05] So I think choosing the discipline of being a part of a local church brings about so many

[00:47:09] things that are part of, it brings about the things that matter like worship, community,

[00:47:14] serving, generosity, right? The influx of the truth and the word of God in my heart and my life and

[00:47:19] living out the Great Commission. Those things are available at the local church, so why not be a part

[00:47:22] of it? Don't give up on the church just because it's made some bad decisions or sometimes there's

[00:47:27] traffic, sometimes the doctor has made a mistake or the medical community pushed for a vaccine.

[00:47:33] The doctor is still a better option than you diagnosing yourself on WebMD. It is, period.

[00:47:38] And the church is still the better option than you trying to do this yourself.

[00:47:42] All right, off my soapbox. Guys, I know this episode got long, but I think this is a big topic.

[00:47:47] I think some of you need to hear this and think about it more. Some of you maybe even like,

[00:47:51] I listen to Pete's podcast, I'm going to go to church, please. Then listen to Pete saying,

[00:47:56] I think you should. It doesn't have to be my church. I don't care if you go to my church,

[00:47:58] go to any church. Just get involved, get plugged in, get connected with other people

[00:48:01] on the journey with you so we can arrive at the destination that God has for us. Okay?

[00:48:06] All right. Thank you so much again. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe to the

[00:48:11] channel, leave a comment. Tell me what you thought of this episode. Tell me what you think about

[00:48:13] going to church. I want to hear from you. If you want one of my books for free, shoot me an

[00:48:17] email, stop by Rice. I'll give you one. Otherwise jump on Amazon and grab one and

[00:48:21] please leave a review. I would so, so appreciate it. It would mean the world to me.

[00:48:26] Yeah. Until then, we will see you on the next episode of Like Stars. My next episode,

[00:48:31] I think we're going to do something about Christmas. It's almost coming. So maybe

[00:48:33] something that deals with the Christmas in the first century or something. It's going to be a lot

[00:48:37] of fun. So stay tuned for that episode coming.